Welcome And Today’s Focus

George Blitch 0:14

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Son of a Bleach podcast. I'm here with MP Woodward. Mike, how are you doing today, sir? I'm great, George. It's great to be on with you. Man, I'm so glad that you're here. We're going to be talking a lot about the fourth option today, which you co-authored with Jack Carr. Uh, we had him on the podcast recently to talk about that. And I kind of wanted to get your perspective. And we'll be talking about, you know, a lot of your other books uh as well and some of the ones that are coming out soon. So, you know, uh with a lot of times with my with my new guests, I really like to give the audience a little bit of background. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit about yourself? Uh obviously, you've spent some time uh in the military, and then you also became a very accomplished author, and you've just been kind of rolling out, spitting out some amazing books. And I just love for you to kind of give you a little bit of intro and then we'll kind of roll into uh some discussions from there, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

You bet, uh yeah. Who doesn't like talking about themselves? Sure. Uh so uh I was uh I I guess I started my career in the Navy as uh as an intelligence officer and uh was attached to a a couple of the the big commands and some some unusual jobs, and that got me around to um a lot of different theaters and embassies, and um I got to see a lot of different things, and that made me want to write about them because it was sort of like being a mile wide and in each and an inch deep in understanding operations and being close to operational teams, um, but then also being closer to sort of the strategy side of things, so a lot of fun at a young age, got out, went into the tech industry um for 20 years, ended up at Amazon, was in Amazon Prime Video, um, and had an international job there, which was really fun. And uh that got me close to creators. Uh, and as I was meeting these screenwriters and producers and stuff, I was like, man, I I can get back into writing stories, you know, and I felt really inspired by that. So I did that, and I wrote my first book was called The Handler in 2022, which drew a lot on my experience uh from the Navy, but also my international travels. And uh, I think the day that uh I got an offer from Penguin Random House, pretty sure I resigned from Amazon the next day, and so ended up ended up uh doing that um full time, and now I think I've written nine books. Uh so I did that series and then switched over to my editor asked me to do the Tom Clancy series, and so I did three Jack Ryan Juniors, and my newest Jack Ryan senior comes out here in November. It's called The Coldest War, and also worked with um with Jack in between and collaborated on a really fun project with uh with the fourth option. So yeah, I've been busy writing and have more stuff coming on the way. Um, and that's uh that that's me in a nutshell.

The Call From Jack Carr

George Blitch 2:53

Nice. Well, I'd I'm excited to have you on in the future to talk about these other books, but we'll hone in right now on the fourth option. Now, when I spoke with Jack a while ago, he said that this was a book that he had in his mind, a story when he was first writing like the Terminalist series. And this was something that as he kind of went forward with that, he could not keep this idea from just growing in his mind. And at one point in time, he read your book, The Handler, and really uh just became a big fan of your writing there too. And then eventually one day he's like, you know what? I can't do this alone. I got so many other things going, a lot of irons in the fire, but I want to do a co-written piece. And he kind of took a cue from Tom Clancy and having some co-authors and working there too, and decided to give you a call. So I would love to hear your perspective. He gets this phone call. What's it like on your end when this is first uh introduced as an idea? When was this? And then what was your first take on that?

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah, that uh this was probably uh year and I guess it was a little over a year ago, year and a half ago, something like that. Yeah, I think it was a year and a half ago because it was around the holidays. And um he uh first off, he was he was a big he was a big star, you know. And um so my agent said, Well, Jack Carr, I never met him, I knew of him, obviously. And and he said, You're my agent called and he said, Jack Carr wants to talk to you. And I'm like, about what? And he says, I don't know. And so I I I get I get on a zoom call and and he he couldn't have been a nicer, more gracious person, you know. I was expecting this seal who was gonna whip out a knife and terrorize me or something based on that, right? Uh and um, but uh actually uh uh a a very a very uh gracious person. And we just start talking books and just really hit it off. And and he goes, Listen, man, I I um he's like, I'm I'm kind of looking for I have a lot going on. I have this story in my head. I kind of I kind of don't have time to do all these books at once, and I'm looking for a partner to kind of get this off the ground. And then he said, and then I looked around and I read your book and I really liked it. And then I saw you're doing these Clancy books, and I was like, oh no, he's already doing something. But but at the time I was actually wrapping up my Jack Ryan Jr. work, and I didn't necessarily know if I was going to keep doing um Tom Clancy books. Um, it wasn't until like after that that they asked me to take the time the Jack Ryan Sr. books. And so I actually I actually had some bandwidth there. I had just written my book, Red Tide. I that was about to launch. So I had a bunch of books in the chamber that weren't out yet, and I actually had I had time, and so I said, no, man, I would I would love to do this, I would love to collaborate with you. Let's do it. And then similarly, he he told me that you know, when he was still in the Navy, he had a couple of ideas um that that that really gelled for him, and this was one of them, and it resonated with me. We talked a lot about um Chris Walker, the hero, being someone who was somewhat um damaged by his experiences in Afghanistan. And you know, this is um, I think that's something that's been on a lot of uh former operators and veterans' minds. And I I detected, frankly, I detected that in Jack. And so I wanted to um explore that a little bit and sort of treat him as a subject to uh to interview and and as a subject for research as we fleshed out the story. So that that's how it got going.

Building Chris Walker’s Inner World

George Blitch 6:23

So, like you just kind of a basis for for those who haven't heard about this yet, you know, Chris Walker's the main character. It's kind of a tribute to like a have gun will travel, stranger comes to town, western and modern day uh setting. And a lot of it, you know, while it kind of makes its way down from the coast into New Orleans, and that's where it's based. Um, you know, for those who who maybe don't know too much about this right now, why don't you go ahead and lay on out just uh kind of an idea of what this story is and the character, and then we'll kind of dive into some more questions.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Yeah, so he Chris Walker is a veteran who is um almost too smart for his own good, who tends to overthink things, and he is um he's trained in philosophy. He had been working on a doctorate in philosophy while still in the military at NYU and didn't didn't quite finish it, but it if if if you've ever studied philosophy, it really gets into your head in terms of um your conception of reality. And in someone's mind, their perception becomes their reality, and that's very much as happened to Chris Walker. So he's all twisted up and knots, he's in a dark place, um, doing what he does as kind of a loner in the Pacific Northwest. And it's really a a call that comes in from the widow of a former colleague in both the SEAL teams and then later in um ground branch and in the CIA who who needs help. And that gives him it suddenly at first that feels something like a one last thing to do kind of thing, but it slowly evolves into a mission and a purpose. Um, and that that that transports him down to uh down to New Orleans, and um and that's when it that's when it starts to pick up that soul of the stranger who comes to town, have gun will travel, western, yeah.

Research Trips And New Orleans Texture

George Blitch 8:16

Well, and when I talk to to Jack about this, you know, you know, and I know that you've done this a lot with some of your books, you're going to those places, studying those areas, getting a lot of that kind of that, you know, historical faction kind of thing, the fiction faction thing together where you're getting the details of this area, while it may be a character that you guys are writing, you a lot of these details are very precise in the ninth ward and just kind of the history there of such a culturally rich rich area as as New Orleans. And it's my understanding that you actually went down there and did some uh kind of you know intel and kind of wrote about you know some of these things there while you were there. You were kind of getting at this information. I'd love to hear about your trip there. When you go to a place like that and you're working on a book, what does that look like for you? Uh, you going to these particular areas looking for the streets, the scenes? Are you trying to take pictures and come back for description? What is it that looks like the that kind of intel operating uh that you're going for when you're there in New Orleans?

Talking With FBI And Trusted Sources

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah, that's a that's a great question. It the well, this is kind of funny. He when when Carr first said, like, look, I'll send you what I have on this story, which it wasn't quite an outline, it was more like a mood. Um, in fact, I think he called it a mood board, right? And it was sort of like a look and feel, and he did have he would he was very much defined on how he wanted um the prologue to start, which began in the gloomy, as he put it to me, the gloomy Pacific Northwest. And I was like, dude, I live in Seattle, so you know, be careful. Um, but but for that opening scene, um, it it takes place out. I maybe I I can't believe I can't remember if I added this or if he had it sort of fuzzy, and then I I gave a finer detail. But the idea was that um he was out on Chris Walker was out on the coast in the Pacific Northwest. And if you've ever been out there super tempestuous and big waves and rainforests and a very wild um territory, which very much was meant to go with his ungoverned mood. And so I, you know, I I um borrowed a sprinter van and went out there to the coast, and I basically wrote that wrote that um over a couple. I mean, I think I was out there 10 days or so, but I mean I go out there a lot anyway. So it was that was pretty easy for me. And then from there, yeah, I went to New Orleans uh with my wife, and we holed up in um right uh at the Montalena Hotel, which comes up in the book, and um really got to know the city. And I'd been to New Orleans a couple times. I have a friend actually who's uh a former um Delta guy who who settled in New Orleans, and so he was kind of a guide for me too. And um one of the things that that most that most shocked me, well, actually two things. One, the history comes alive there, and um, you know, I'm a I'm a student of history, I love history. Um, the and you know, the uh the battle of New Orleans with Andrew Jackson made sure to work that into the book. Uh, and uh the Tennessee Volunteers, um, and you know, touring touring that and kind of created in one area for for Chris Walker to get tactical. But but the other thing that is foremost on any New Orleans citizen's mind who's been there is Hurricane Katrina and how um how just what an impression that left. And in the ninth ward, when you go visit that, you know, just briefly, the ninth ward is um is an area of town that is behind levees and it's technically below sea level. And so when Katrina happened, you know, the the link Lake Ponchertrain to the to the north, um, it's all kind of like a flood table and the the levee broke. And when the levee broke, a number of houses, it's already kind of a lower income area. And so a number of of houses that were already in rough shape, just totally blown up. And one of the things I learned, for example, in talking to people is they learned that a number one lesson is to keep an axe in the attic because when you have to climb up and you know your house floods, you got to axe through through that attic um to get out. And just wow, just just things like that. Um, it made it it made it a really rich place that people are you know always familiar with with downtown, but even even downtown Bourbon Street, um, they were scarred down there because I mean I had kind of forgotten around it, but about it, but there was sort of a terrorist incident there where a guy gathered up some guns, um, went down. And so now they they had a lot more security. Um, when I visited, uh, they would uh to not allow driving at certain hours. And um, I went by the FBI um uh bureau out there and interviewed some agents and really got a feel for, hey, what's corruption like? What's crime like? What's it like since since uh Katrina? Um, you know, how do people look at things? And that that that gives you, as an author, a wonderful sort of tableau on which to say, where might a villain inhabit this? You know, where might innocent people fall victim to a villain, where are sort of the weak spots to test, and also where are the good people? Um, and that that New Orleans is a really, really rich place for that.

George Blitch 13:30

What does that look like when you're walking into like with the FBI office and you're like, hey, I want to have this intel? They're like, Who are you again? I mean, I mean, yeah, I was curious as far as like that, because I'm I'm sure if they look you up, there's the credentials are there, right? But it's like when you're saying, Hey, I'm working on this book and I'm looking for these things, is like how does that first sit-down happen? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

You know, I I have some experience there because of the Tom Clancy work. Like, right, okay. When I'm writing my first thriller, I'm like, I I I'm I write under MP Woodward, they're like, Who, you know, Bob Woodward? No, no, no, no, you know, right? You don't get anywhere. But Tom Clancy, like, I mean, for the coldest war, I you know, actually after New Orleans, I went up to N Norway and Finland, and the Norwegian army let me in bed with them, believe it or not. Yeah. And uh, you know, I so did the Finns. Um, and so Jaeger brigades and stuff. So I've learned that if you just ask if there's a big enough name, people are really excited to help out because they want to tell your story. And sure, the US government will have like, oh, you know, you better check here, and there's secrets and stuff, but one-on-one, people in downtime um will help you out. And um, but Kwar and I, one of the one of the things that made writing this book really fun for me was we had an overlapping network of people. He knew um, obviously, he knows a lot of operators, he knew a canine handler that I interviewed extensively, not only interviewed, but then had an opportunity to like hit with a quick text message. Um, I had a couple of FBI friends that I cultivated from from the Clancy work, but then Carr had one too. Carr had an EOD guy, you know, it was like that. And so um with the FBI folks, uh, there's there's guys who are recently retired, or or you know, there's the basically the public racial relations people who will let you in the door and let you see the the seal on the wall and talk about you know the seven things they do there. So I you you you can do things like that, but then get deeper, deeper stuff just from personal anecdotes. And there's nothing classified about them, it's just like that's what authors do is they look for the stories inside the the officialdom. And that's the that's the fun, that's the fun part of the research.

How They Co-Wrote The Novel

George Blitch 15:40

Sure. No, absolutely. Well, you know, it it I was thinking about that kind of idea, like when you're doing this research and you're working on this. It's one thing when you kind of have a train to drive that's your own and you've got your own ideas. When you're bouncing something off, have you done any work with it with kind of I mean, it from what you just said, as far as like um, you know, kind of that information gathering and fact checking and making sure the dog handling parts are right, or this part is right with EOD, like that's an important and that's doing your homework and doing it right and doing it justice to tell that story the right way with those types of resources at hand from your friends and you know, people who maybe you worked with. But as far as working on a book together with someone else, it's just a different kind of vehicle. And it was for Jack as well, too. And I was curious, uh, in a not in a fictional format, right? But I was curious, um, is as far as that take, what was that like for you um in that? Was there some challenges? Was there a lot of excitement? Was it kind of like, hey, I'm gonna, I got this idea of dialogue with this character, well, I've got this, and kind of emerging. I was just kind of curious, you know, kind of it's a I know it's an a kind of an open-ended question there, but I was wondering what that process was like for you to uh undertake that with Jack.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, um the the uh well here's how I thought about it. I don't think either I don't think either of us knew. And so let me start from here. Like people might say, well, you've done co-writing before. Well, we we call it legacy writing uh in the Clancy world, right? Um and you're like, Yeah, but Tom Clancy's dead. And so, you know, like the the the your editor in when you're doing a Clancy book basically says, Go write a story, I'll see you in six months. You know, I mean that's pretty much as much direction as you get. And you and you generally will submit a synopsis, make sure they're kind of good with it, and then you go away. Um, in this case, I think both Jack and I were like, Well, uh, well, what's the what's the right way to do this? Um, I I did have um my thought was when when coming into it was well, okay, you know, I'm working for him in this, and um, you know, I spent 20 years uh in the in the tech business and know how to manage projects and manage bosses and you know manage organizations. And so I was I thought I'm gonna put uh structures and mechanisms in place, I hope, that will make Jack comfortable so that I can work on this in the way that I think he wants to, but check in frequently enough to make sure that he's I'm getting feedback from him and that it's in a really super constructive way. And I don't want to like go down a path, you know, where he goes, man, oh man, that's way too much in this direction. So so I um what I started with was these are some of these are tools that I do myself, but I went the extra mile to work with him. So, for example, I started with an Excel spreadsheet of here's who I here's the characters I believe we need. And it was more than Chris Walker, you know. I I think we started with Chris Walker, his widow, and his old friend, and that was kind of it, right? And and there was basically a drug cabal, I guess Chris and the old friend's son. Was Paladin in there at the very beginning? Paladin was in there too. Okay, yeah, paladin was in there too. So I so I want to say it was yeah, I want to say it was like those five characters, but like um Mirabelle, I said, Well, I need a I kind of need a sidekick, you know, like I need I need somebody like that. Um, that also tells the story of New Orleans from a different angle. Um, and then so so what I would do is I would I would take them and put them in a Excel spreadsheet. And one of the things I really enjoy doing is uh I like to go out and match a picture of an actor with a name just to make it easier, you know? Like so you can you can sort of visualize all this like a screenplay. And so I did that, which is again, I normally do like, for example, the the bad cop, you know, Bates. Um, I think I have Morris Chestnut, right? Was like I went out and got him. I'm like, man, and in my head, he's Bates, right? Um, and so I I kind of made that cast of characters um for Jack, and I was like, here's what I want their name to be, or it's where I want their nickname to be. He was really fussy about names. Um, it's partly because I think he wants to put names of people from his life in there, which I totally get. Yep. Um, but also it's like you don't want a repetition, too many guys start with S or you know, that name sounds Russian, or you know, things like that. I deal with that too. And so we had a lot of that, and then we would have a lot of um maybe this guy's background is more like this, and um, those kinds of things. So I would say I would say it was akin to if you've ever been part of um a video production, which I was always on the periphery of at Amazon. A lot goes into when a screenplay gets written, everybody has to agree on that screenplay before a camera rolls, like everybody. And so it goes back and forth a lot. And so I tried to I tried to use that to say, like, here's the characters I'm thinking about. Then I moved it into PowerPoint and was like, look, here's here's how the bad guys think. This is how it works. That turned out to be a super useful um collaboration tool. Uh, and then I went from a PowerPoint to with Jack's feedback, then I went to a detailed outline, and that's probably where he was um most you know, sort of the most involved in pushing the story in various directions. Like I might I might say, well, maybe the guy does this and then he'd go, that never works. Like, you know what I mean? Like they wouldn't do that way, you know what I mean? Here's a better way to go. I know a guy who knows how to do that kind of thing. Um, that that sort of stuff, which was real actually really helpful. And I think I I'd like to think that we both brought um brought different skill sets and different values, and there's a certain there's a certain synergy there, you know. Obviously, he's got that frontline operator stuff down, and he wrote my operator set piece, he rewrote my operator set piece pretty massively. But there were there were other ones where I think um some of the introspection and and stuff like that. I think that he he he appreciated what I what I brought there. Um and and uh, you know, I I thought I thought the result was really a really interesting character who was you know just a lot deeper than than what than what we typically see. And I think we both wanted that for the fact.

Red Tide And Naval Institute Honor

George Blitch 22:00

foundation of a series you want you want readers to go like I know that guy I know people like that guy I get why that guy I get how his clock works and oh no he's gonna look at this a certain way you know um as opposed to a cutout who hey it's fun to watch that guy be in a scene now you want you want to be rootable you want to be emotionally grounded and that's art you know that's that's what that's what we both wanted and that's why we made Chris Walker a complex guy well he is that man I think you guys I love that from your writing styles his writing styles you guys come together and there's uh such a cohesion right it's not it doesn't feel like two different voices it feels like one and it's a very uh succinct amazing book I think people are gonna love this I can't wait for it to hit to come out it's May 12th is the day that is the publication day um so this will air just a little bit beforehand but you know that means everybody go get your pre-orders on right now so you can have it there's some signed editions as well um that that are available there you can go through Jack Carr's website and then obviously um I'll have links on to to buy some you know where people can get them from Amazon and Barnes Noble wherever else independent bookstores of course anytime you guys can support those I I I urge you to um you know and and before you kind of we give your socials and and website there where people can follow more about your books I wanted to talk about one in particular and that's Red Tide which is a masterpiece and you were actually just named author of the year and you're heading out to the Naval Academy next week right so it's gonna be a big week for you.

Preorders Socials And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Tell me about that man what was that uh like getting out of oh yeah yeah no I th I thank you very much yeah um so red tide is speculative fiction it's called Red Tide a novel of the next Pacific war and um I had just finished that one before we got going on um fourth option or it had it was just about to come out and uh and yeah that that if um if people are familiar with the Herman Wilk classic Winds of War um also um Anton Meyer Once an Eagle it's funny because Carr and I our very first conversation he goes what what's your favorite book I said once in Once an Eagle by Anton Meyer and he goes I used to give that to my the guys in my seal platoon um to read and I'm like you've got to be kidding me you know what I mean like so and so yeah so I wrote Red Tide because both those both Windsor War and Once an Eagle are both books where it's about families and they're a naval family in in my case um and where uh a war has an impact on that so it's not just the geopolitical level it's what happens to people who support those services and that's what I thought all those books did really well and I really wanted to tell a story like that. So the publisher um is the U.S. Naval Institute they were actually the original publisher of the Hunt for Red October that they were the original publisher for uh Flight of the Intruder Stephen Koontz was in my squadron in the Navy at one point and before me not that old but um but yeah he Stephen Koontz and I actually have uh you know corresponded and so it was an honor for me to publish with the U.S. Naval Institute and yeah the admiral who runs it um pinged me about a month ago and said hey I'm writing with good news you because of red tide you've been chosen our our author of the year will you come to the Naval Academy and accept this award so I'm going back there next week anybody's in anybody's in annapolis uh let let me know but it's a um it's a tri it's a it's a trem tremendous honor um and uh I really wrote this book kind of for the Navy so to get that kind of um gratitude back is just just a wonderful thing man well congratulations again on that and congratulations on the fourth option this is a masterpiece I cannot wait to see this series unfold and will you two be working on the next one together is this going to be a continuation of we will uh uh we will see we will see yeah we don't not you know we we try to leave people wanting more in this audience well yeah you you've you've got this we'll we'll digest this first and then see what comes next right here's the hopefully it's an appetizer for many courses to come well listen Mike thank you so much for joining me today I would love to have you back on uh you know I know that Coldest War is probably a November December release so we'll have you back on to talk about that when that book gets a little bit closer and any other time you got anything I'd love to hear from you and I know the audience will appreciate it as well and uh any last parting words maybe any uh you know final thoughts on you know this book and the fanship you know the support that you've had uh from all of the you know interested people who have been reading your books anything kind of a parting word you'd like to leave no it's um I think it's an exciting time to be um in this business and in this industry um there's a lot of great stuff being written and there's a certain fraternity among uh among authors and you know car car car is a a a great guy and deserves all the success that he's had and I'm really happy to be a part of it. Good deal man well where can people follow your journey go to your website your socials tell them where they can follow that and pick up some of the books you've written yeah I'm at mpwoodward uh com and I maintain uh I'm a like you a lover of history I maintain a history blog there and have all my socials and stuff at mpw author on uh on X and yeah the the rest of them are tongue twisters you'll you'll find out you'll figure out the rest I think it's at mpwoodward on Facebook too okay good deal well I'll have all the links below so everyone go check the show notes make sure you do that make sure you're getting your copy at the fourth option and leave the reviews those always help the authors then hear about uh your personal experience with them and once again Mike I really appreciate you joining me looking forward to uh many more times having you on and talking about your amazing work you got going on. Absolutely my pleasure George thank you cheers thank you