SPEAKER_00: 0:15

Steve Hall, welcome to the podcast, man.

SPEAKER_01: 0:17

How are you doing today, bud? Hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I'm doing great. It's cold weather out, so you're kind of making your neck feel a little bit fuzzy.

SPEAKER_00: 0:26

I know, I know. It's the hunting season, man. It's uh every morning I've been waking up. I'm like, ooh, I bet the ranch is thriving right now. You've been getting out and uh doing some some courses, some events. You've been out in the woods lately?

SPEAKER_01: 0:40

I I have, I have, I've been all over the place, but uh doing some courses. We did a Becoming an Outdoors Woman workshop, which we can talk about uh down at Rockport at the beginning of the month. And then today I'm heading to the Game Warden Academy to help uh my the new colleagues, the new hunter education team, with uh uh uh the annual instructor course for all Game Wardens so that they can be certified as instructors, but also mostly help volunteers in their area. So that'll be fun. It'll be uh like old home week for me just to come back from a retired position with Texas Parks and Wildlife and still serve as a uh volunteer instructor.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21

So nice, that'll be fun, man. Well, I mean, you've been you were with them for quite some time, and I want to definitely talk about your your uh history working with Texas Parks and Wildlife, and then also now with NRA. Uh, but you know, I I kind of want to, you know, bring it back to maybe give a little introduction. Uh, you know, tell us a little bit about where you're born and raised, how you got into working in this outdoor field, uh, you know, maybe through your time in Colorado there going to school, and then you know, trace it back and kind of give everyone a little bit of uh a little 101 background story, and then we'll kind of jump into some of the things you've been involved in and uh, you know, your love for hunter education and you know, thriving, uh getting people out there in the outdoors, man.

SPEAKER_01: 1:58

Well, you bet. I I actually grew up in the heart of Denver and uh Catholic neighborhood. Uh 10, I got nine siblings, so 10 of us kids, and and uh a dad that hunted and went outdoors all the time. So we grew up hunting, and we had a lake club about 30 miles north of Denver. So we were always up at that lake club hunting ducks mostly, but some pheasants and foxes, and then eventually geese, which moved into the front range and stuff like that. So it was a uh rich history uh growing up hunting up on the South Platte River Valley and things like that. And then, of course, deer and elk hunting. But back then, deer and elk, you couldn't hunt until you were 14 years of age. So, fast forward, I went to Colorado State, got a wildlife biology degree up at Fort Collins, Colorado, and then moved to Austin, Texas, of all places in 1985 after uh I did have a stint with the American Sportsman's Club and then also with the Colorado Division of Wildlife, and then found a permanent job with Texas Parks and Wildlife in 1985 with the Hunter Education Program. I was the assistant hunter ed specialist back then, and that grew into outreach and education director and 36 years later, and about 10 more years with as a hunter education manager because I actually retired in 2011, came back in 2015, and uh in between I was the executive director of the Texas State Rifle Association and then the International Hunter Education Association. So all of those jobs uh led me uh you know down a pathway of teaching hunter education, and I always say it's because I'm Ralphie. I'm the poster child of uh Ralphie, the Christmas story kid, because uh, you know, I did have nine siblings with five older brothers, and I kind of learned everything the wrong way. And so we had a range in our basement. And I got my BB rider red red daisy or Daisy BB Red Rider, uh six years of age, promptly shot it all day on Christmas Day. It was the best day of my life. Next day I came down and my brother got dirt stuck in, and I was all mad at him. I tried the pliers, couldn't get the mudd unstuck. So, what's the next best thing a kid does? He uses teeth. And I got it. But I heard a clicking sound. I thought that was the auto sound, because you know, I I I put the barrel up and down to hear the babies going down, and there were no baby sounds. Forgot about the one in the chamber, of course. And uh anyway, long and long and short of it, I shot myself in the tongue, in the back of my tongue, and I was ushered, you know, crying like a baby down to the hospital with my mom and my dad's a doctor at the local hospital, and before I knew it, every doctor was around my bedside because Doc Hall's son shot himself. And they saw the x-ray, they saw the baby in the back of the tongue, they squeezed it out. Two weeks later, I had to give uh a talk to all my uh first grade, uh both first grades, uh, as to how I shot myself. And of course, we Catholic high uh Catholic grade school, so we had nuns for teachers, and so I had to tell everybody how I shot myself, but my penance for the rest of my life is to teach hunting and firearm safety. So that's what I tell people, and I'm sticking to it. You'll shoot your tongue out.

SPEAKER_00: 5:16

Well, I'm glad that you're you're still here with us and able to talk. And that is quite the story of uh being able to then make sure no one else has those kinds of accidents. Well, it's uh that that is remarkable, man. I I did not know that one. That's great.

SPEAKER_01: 5:32

Yeah, it's it, you know, again, it it's in my blood. It's in my upbringing. I I studied in college for it. Uh, and the Texas Parks and Wildlife experience was the greatest career anybody could ask for because uh mostly it was, you know, recruiting all kinds of folks to the outdoors, whether it be through angling, boating, hunting. And and I did all of that and actually started the Wildlife Expo that we had for 18 years. And that was kind of a uh weekend event in Austin that really showcased everything there is about uh the outdoors and about Texas Parks and Wildlife. And uh it was still to this day the best event I could have ever hoped to be involved with and privileged to get to you know work alongside game wardens, biologists, and everybody at Parks and Wildlife to put on quite a show.

SPEAKER_00: 6:24

Well, I mean, it it's something that I think is is super important. What all the work that you've done, you've done work with whether it's youth hunting, uh getting women into sports. I mean, there's so much, like you said, too. It's it's bow, it's rifle, it's it's a little bit everything, fishing. You know, and I kind of wanted to maybe, you know, for people who are, you know, there's a lot of, you know, my my my my kiddo, for instance, you know, about to go and take the hunter education program here in in Texas so that she can get you know out and into the field and do some hunting with me. Um, you know, we've had some hogs and things, and in Texas, you don't necessarily need a uh a license for that as long as you have uh landowner permission. But for all other things you're gonna be hunting, you're gonna have to have that hunter education certification. And I was kind of curious for those who may not, you know, know what that's like in the state of Texas and maybe even beyond, can you give a little bit of kind of broad strokes of what that kind of course looks like for people and you know what they may come to expect, you know, going to that course and maybe how that's kind of situated here in Texas?

SPEAKER_01: 7:20

Yeah, I I mean a great question. At the bottom line is that it's just the most historic conservation education program in America, with the first mandatory program in New York in 1949. Uh and from there, and that was taken off the NRA's hunter safety uh program, and from there it expanded in the different states. And then in 1972, with the funding uh uh bill, it's called the Dingle Heart bill to the essentially an amendment to the Pittman Robertson Act that says we could now tax uh handguns, archer equipment for uh one of the beneficiaries of that was the hunter education effort. So in 1972, you saw a lot of states get on board with hunter education, and today every state has a mandatory program, every province, even all the countries, and it's run through an International Hunter Education Association, World and US of A and Canada, and basically we stick to the same standards. And that curricula is really all about safe and responsible hunting. It's the best rite of passage that we of hunters, you know, put on ourselves back in the early days to really kind of orient people not only, you know, to the safe ways to hunt and the legal ways to hunt, but really also the ethical ways. I mean, it's one of the few places in conservation education back in the 40s and 50s and the 60s that were taught ethics. I mean, and of course, we say that you can't teach ethics, that ethics are caught, not taught. But the bottom line is it really kind of transferred and planted a lot of seeds back then uh to today's generation and our in our kids' generation and now our grandkids' generation. Um, and it's just that rite of passage that if I'm graduated from hunter education, I kind of have the basics, I have the standards, and hopefully stick to them. And it does show uh over time, over the last 50 years, a drop of 80% in uh injuries and fatalities involved in hunting. Uh, it's one of the safest outdoor activities now. But I also like to say that we've helped with compliance to regulations, but we really also helped make a better person, better citizen, a better hunter in the ethics part of the deal. And ethics is really all about being a role model, being a good hunter and passing on good values and those kind of things. So I think that we've done a marvelous job over 50, 60 years with that. I've again been privileged to be an instructor since 1980. So I'm I've uh and and I'll go till till the end of my days. So uh they may, you know, I'm taking this penis stuff really seriously from the Catholic religion.

SPEAKER_00: 10:09

Well, I mean, it listen, you have so much wealth of knowledge and you've been doing it for so long, and you have, I'm sure you've seen some changes over those decades, but you know, that those same principles apply as far as you know, loving the outdoors, the the having the safety mechanisms and the ethics. And you know, when you were mentioning that, I was thinking about um, you know, a mutual friend of ours, Michael Sabbath, and his book where he's talking about hunting ethics, and that's something that you guys have used before. He's been on the podcast previously as well, obviously hosted you guys out at the ranch. Uh, and you know, and and for those who didn't know, uh, you know, Steve and I got to meet each other uh through an event here in Texas, a hog hunt. Uh I was working with a lot of people um involved with the Outdoor Stewards Conservation Foundation, uh the you know, come with program, kind of bringing people into the outdoors. And we had some people that were part of the Texas Parks Wildlife who were not, you know, very seasoned hunters. Uh, and you know, we kind of helped do some mentorship there and you know ate some delicious wild hog from Jesse Griffiths, the incredible uh wild game chef here in Texas. So that's kind of how we got to meet each other. And you know, uh Michael came with you out to the ranch, and you know, then we had a podcast, but that was something that was very important. And if you want to talk about maybe his book uh uh about hunting ethics and how maybe you guys have used that to train some of the uh hunter education uh you know certifying professors and such uh over the years as well, if you wouldn't mind.

SPEAKER_01: 11:31

Yeah, Michael Sabbath, uh a lawyer out of Denver, and and when his girls got into grade school, he found that there was really a lack of the values and ethics being taught at that age. And and so he used his girls and his grade school to try to uh perfect a message of of how to teach ethics to young children. And it was a book that he wrote. And I got really captivated by the book because you know I have children and grandchildren, and you're always trying to figure out you know, values and how to pass along the good ones and how to make sure we steer them around the bad ones. And and Mike did that in a way um that I thought was pretty unique because teaching ethics to to children, that's just an interesting subject. Well, then he transferred that really to help us in hunter education, uh, teaching ethics in in in to students in hunter education, whether they be children or adults, but but it's not it it's all the same, right? And it's hard to, as a volunteer instructor myself, uh or anybody that's a volunteer, it's hard to know where we all came from, right? We got so many influences and things like that. So Michael put together a book, a reference book to help us with our message as instructors to these students, and to uh not to perfect the message, because again, ethics is is is a jigsaw puzzle in many ways, but there are definitely rights and wrongs uh that we can be as hunters, right? So we can definitely do right and we can definitely do wrong. And kind and we kind of know that deep down what what the right actions are, what the wrong actions are, unless we grew up in a poaching family or something. But um, yeah, so you kind of know it. I I just think of my mom sitting on my right shoulder, guiding me all the way, you know. Uh and I my sense is that we all have that that guardian angel, that person sitting on our shoulder. And to act ethically outdoors is kind of an interesting thing. I mean, we've got more and more gadgets coming along the marketplace. We've got all kinds of things influencing us and our ethics. Uh, and and really, what do we do with that? So Mike helped us again perfect that the messages that we can share with our students and not be preachy about it and not be, you know, it essentially facilitate an activity that allows them to explore it the best way.

SPEAKER_00: 14:05

Oh, well said. I mean, and and you know, I I kind of talked about those books too, so I'll put some links below on on those conversations I had with with Michael Sabbath there. Um, but you know, a great blueprint that have been used for for many different hunter education uh teachers and and courses there too. Um, you know, you talked about retiring once in 2011 and then again now in 2025, and uh then you got that call up. How are you now working with the NRA doing the online hunting education courses? Uh, what all you know kind of roles and and how did that come to be? Because uh, you know, I thought you maybe you were sailing into that sunset of the hunter education world, but no, they brought you back. The appeance is still going.

SPEAKER_01: 14:44

Yeah, my penance and and I I truthfully, I'd get bored if I just sat around. So um I gotta volunteer, I gotta be active. Uh, I'll never let go of outdoor education. I've been teaching bird watching in Colorado and been teaching archery, and I just will keep a lot of that in the air, you know, a lot of that going. But deep down, my my first love and and always will be hunter education. So I'll I'll stay very active as a volunteer, what they call hunter ed instructor, but uh hunt master in the youth hunting program in Texas, which we started in '96. So again, one of the things that uh I guess I'm most proud of is how Texas has really come in with a suite of products that if you want to learn anything about hunting in the outdoors, there, you know, at Parks and Wildlife, go to the website if anything else, you're you can find it, you know, whether it be a basic Angler education or archery course, all the way to hunting one-on-ones and mentored hunting programs through the partnership with the Texas Wildlife Association. So that's that's I think um it just makes me proud to be a Texan in that sense, you know, to where I think that we have uh really a world to offer anybody that's wanting to get outdoors, and especially those that are new to an outdoor experience, because they could find mentors and people that'll help them along.

SPEAKER_00: 16:08

I think that's uh well said, you know, that's something that I've talked to a lot of people who have an interest, you know, especially in a day and age where there's a lot of different media out there, uh, Meat Eater comes to mind where there is a bridge from people who are non-hunting into that hunting world. Where before, you know, kind of grewing up when it when you know, if you had a your VHS or maybe some DVDs, like you could have those hunting things with the Texas Trophy Hunter magazine or something here in Texas, but you know, or or whatever other publications there were, um, you didn't, you know, unless you knew someone, sometimes it was hard, especially in the state of Texas, a lot of private land here. You know, in other areas it's public land. But then if you don't have that way of life instilled in you and your family and your friends, that access may be hard to get. But with practices that have been in place, like you said, for many decades here in Texas, it's something where you can know nothing and walk into it and you can be able to get your feet wet and learn, you know, hunting ethics, practices, safety, and be able to kind of, you know, take that next step on your own, which I see a lot of people doing, and especially merging in, having, you know, delicious wild game meals from uh incredible chefs that there's so many things that are there at our fingertips uh that that weren't there maybe when I was growing up or or yourself there, where I I feel like there is a a lot available for those, you know, younger hunters or you know, adult onset hunting, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 17:29

Yeah, there there is. And I I I with uh my contacts, you know, when I retired in June with the uh hunter education community, I again I didn't really retire, but I did morph into uh NRA's hunter education online program. Uh it's one of the suite of internet courses that preface field work. And so, for example, in Texas, they can take the NRA online course and then go take a field course if they're youngster. They can take the online course if they're an adult and get certification, but again, they're gonna still want to figure out how to hunt and where to hunt, who you know, who to go with, all those things. So it's not it again, it's just a basic entry point, and it puts everybody on the same plane as far as safety, legal, ethics, and those kind of things. So really proud of all that. Uh I'm I'm uh customer support for NRA, so I get to talk to hunters. Oh, cool. That that makes me happy. Um, I've talked with hunters since 1985, since coming to Texas, and well, even before then in Colorado. But the bottom line is I like to talk with hunters, like to see where they're at, where they want to go, and to help them along that journey. So that's really been my role. And I get to continue it through the NRA, and again, that makes me happy.

SPEAKER_00: 18:53

I love it, man. Well, you know, I'm so glad you got to join me today. I love talking about your history. I when you were mentioning Hunting 101, I had to mention I still got the challenge coin. In fact, I got three. I got the hog one, I got the other Texas Parks and Wildlife. So I was ready in case you're whipping it out, man. I had them this time because that time when you brought them to the ranch, I failed to have them on me.

SPEAKER_01: 19:13

I owed you the well, I I've not only got them right here, but I just uh I just grabbed a bunch of shot shell pins for the Game Warden cadets, so I can give them a memento of of our experience together. And always like to do that. I mean, I see mementos behind you with the arrowheads all the time, but so I I've got a poster for you of all the different arrowhead points, and uh that'll be my next present to you.

SPEAKER_00: 19:41

Thank you, man.

SPEAKER_01: 19:42

And you're one that can actually prove it.

SPEAKER_00: 19:45

Yes, I know that one was this one. And and Meg still has that shotgun pin when you gifted her when we did when we did that. My wife Meg, she joined us in in that hunt down there and uh and why not ranch there here whenever uh we were there with you know all the all the folks there at Tex Parks and Wildlife. Outdoors through its conservation foundation. Um, you know, non-typical outdoors. It was quite a group, man. That was so much fun. But no, we still got the mementos and think of you guys often too.

SPEAKER_01: 20:09

Yeah, well, it's it's again, it's tough to remember us by. Yeah, and it's important that as part of that. I really said, you know, I would leave it with this is that we're trying to continue the hunting heritage in Texas. It's a strong heritage, the shooting sports heritage is strong in Texas, and we just want to continue that uh for not only our grandkids, but the next ones along behind after them. And I uh I've seen it, you know, at least 56 years worth uh and proud of that heritage, especially in Texas and how strong it is here. And I just hope that we can continue it.

SPEAKER_00: 20:46

Well, me too, man. And I'm glad you're still out there helping teach uh folks and getting new people uh and enthusiastic about getting the outdoors and just loving what this uh great world has to offer. And I'll have all the links down below for some of the things we talked about, some of the hunter education uh certification courses, safety courses, uh obviously the NRA online uh hunter education course as well that you're involved with. And uh, you know, we'll go from there. And uh, you know, I definitely look forward to having you back on and also having you back out to the ranch, man. We uh we got to go out there and uh you know spend some time outdoors, man. It's been a minute.

SPEAKER_01: 21:20

Yeah, sit around the fireplace, if nothing else. That's my favorite activity.

SPEAKER_00: 21:24

Yes, yes. Well, I always say it might one of my favorite hunts is aeroid hunting, but I like to hunt a good fire pit too, man. It's good to sit around there and just uh unwind and spend some great time with your your you know friends and family, especially after a good hunt, too, right? There's nothing like that camaraderie afterwards talking about those experiences. And I, you know, I look forward to many of those with you as well. Let's do it, buddy. Cheers, man. Steve, thank you so much for joining me again. And uh, you know, as far as one other thing I was gonna ask you at the very end here, it you know, it just kind of popped into my mind is one thing I like to ask folks, especially who've had quite a career uh in whatever field they're in, is the idea about legacy. When you look back on your work in you know, this field and wildlife biology and hunter education and safety, would do you have an idea of like what it is that you're I mean, because you've you've left so much behind, you've worked with so many different instructors. What do you think about your personal uh touch on the legacy of hunter education and safety in the state of Texas and beyond?

SPEAKER_01: 22:29

Well, certainly, I guess in the state of Texas, um really not only helped uh shape the program uh from the onset, but even past the 88 mandatory hunter education program. We've certified 1.7 million students in Texas, uh about 1.3 or 4 of that is uh during my tenure. So I think from a legacy standpoint, it it it it never hurts to think back in the sense of accomplishment, right? But I'm one of those that also got 10 years and 20 years and whatever ahead to try to do even more. Um but the other concept, the other, I guess, accomplishment or legacy was really outdoor education in Texas. Really, the 90s really helped us. Andy Sansome was our director, and he really let me do some free reign stuff, created things like the Aquatic Ed program, the mobile sporting claves range, the Perry Hayde Youth Conservation Camps, the Texas Youth Hunting Program, all these things got to be privileged to be on the development of all those programs that now touch millions of people in Texas. And I just hope that they continue to grow. I hope they've got some super people at Parks and Wildlife, you know, involved in a lot of those programs. But mostly the volunteers that are involved are just like the most super people you want to meet across Texas. Uh when I moved here in '85, a lot of them took me under their wings and and really helped me out. Um because I needed it, you know. I was a Yankee from the North country, you know. Uh, but they really I found that I found Texans to be so uh warm and uh golly, friendly. And it no no no wonder it's a friendship safe. But bottom line is they took me under their wings, and I just hope that I can put people under my wings uh in the same vein.

SPEAKER_00: 24:26

So well said. Well, Steve, thank you again for all that you've contributed to the state of Texas, hunter education as a whole. Uh, and you know, looking forward to uh hearing more about what you got going on next, man. And uh yes, thank you again. Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01: 24:41

All right, let's let's go hunting. Let's do it. Take care, man. Thanks, buddy. Take care.