SPEAKER_01: 0:15

Pat Kelly, welcome to the podcast. How you doing today, sir? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have you on. We're going to be talking about your premier book, Rifle Season, which comes out January 27th. I wanted to have you on to kind of let people know about it and get those pre-orders going, man. And I mean, this is amazing thriller. Uh the Mace Winners series, it is so hard to put down. I know readers are going to love it. Um, I'd love for you to kind of just maybe start us off with telling us a little bit about the story, and then uh we'll dive into some other things and kind of the history of your writing and everything. But, you know, let's just get right to it, man. Tell us a little bit about rifle season.

SPEAKER_00: 0:51

I was sort of a thriller writer back in my other career as a screenwriter. And then uh I have my rural uh Western Slope, Colorado home where hunting is a big thing, especially elk season. And uh I guess the actual genesis of the idea was first week of October. We get this kind of massive influx in my neck of the woods of people. We got a lot of trophy elk habitat right on my place and all around. And um, we get a lot of people from all over the place show up with guns. And uh, I grew up hunting in Texas and Louisiana and Colorado, and so um it's fine with me as long as everyone plays by the rules. Uh walk up to my gate, always take my glass with me, and there'll be these pickups cruising by, guys, glass in my place, glass in the elk. And this is years a few years ago, and I just was thinking that I don't know any of these people. These are all people from Texas, uh, Florida, LA, maybe some New Yorkers out there looking for that trophy elk. All of them strangers, all of them armed. And the kernel of the idea was what a great place, great time of year to settle a score and get away with it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:15

Well, you bring in your main character, Mason Winners, Mace, and I love how there's, and without giving too much away, the elk rifle season is kind of the two different sides of this story. It it kind of, you know, is uh the beginning and the end, and it's kind of a year apart, and there's a lot of different themes of things that kind of come back around, um, and a lot of dips back into the past. You know, there's obviously the thriller aspect, there's a lot of mystery, there's some revenge in there too. But that bookmarking of the rifle season and what you take your character through in that year, the main character Mace, uh, and his wife, Jamie, and their dog, and there's just so many different things and all these characters that come through. What was it when you first thought about this idea to bring in these particular characters and also the other ones that that come into the fray? And again, I don't want to give too many away, but you know, there is a lot there that I was kind of wondering how you were unpacking this. Were there some uh inspirational uh moments and pivotal, you know, people and then experiences that you studied, or is this all something that you came up with on your own?

SPEAKER_00: 3:24

The setting, the place, the people. I know a lot of hunters, I know a lot of elk hunters, and you know, we have three seasons we have bow hunting, muzzle loading, and rifle season. And um, I know guys that do all that, um hunt my place still, and uh uh they're very careful, they really help me with a lot of stuff. But I've had 29 years of meandering among elk hunters and watching them field dress, watching them do their thing, and I'm always struck by the uh the finality of an elk rifle round of a round that's going at 3200 feet per second, and that is the cardinal rule. What is downrange? What is downrange? And if you broke that rule, if you broke it even for a second, and you really messed up, that would be such a huge thing, and I thought it'd be a great jumping off point for someone who is careful in a legendary way, just like his father, who was a guide, who whose father, my dad beat gun safety into me. He was just he constantly uh beat some gun gun safety into me. And I've done it to my son. And um, this is the thing. What if you broke the cardinal rule for one second, and your whole life unravels after that? You lose your insurance, you lose your friends, you go to jail, probably. I mean, that was the that was what I wanted to have a guy at the top of the mountain. Got a lot of got a lot of racks in the trophy, in the books, and he just has this one moment of inattention. And that to me was a little it was just a catharsis, and the rest of it was the rest of it was um making it work, making him what does what is in his past, who are still his friends, who still believes in him, who gives him a chance, and it it's stuff like that. That that was the that was the the beginning, the fulcrum of the story. He sees something, he knows or saw something, he's afraid of losing the shot, he's afraid of losing that rack, he's afraid of being that guy, trophies, rain or shine. So he says, send it. The whole book follows from that, and then the rest is the rest is the whole hunting thing, the whole hunting anything, and while that's going on, these other people show up, and they are hunters of men, and everyone's gonna be hunting in the same place, and nobody knows who's who until it's too late.

SPEAKER_01: 6:14

Yeah, I mean, it and it really is into the last pages when you kind of have a semblance of what is actually taking place, and obviously leaving some uh you know stones unturned for the you know future books here, which we'll dive into in a little bit. But you know, you you talked about these two strangers that seek him out, and that they are going up to the mountains. He thinks that they're gonna go ahead and just you know have an innocent uh photo session and that they're gonna go out there and they want to go ahead and see what that world is like, and they know he is the best on top of the mountain in that so dispense. But then they actually are assassins that are going after after a warlord, and that just it it kind of unravels all these different things, and the hunters become the hunted. One of the things also that that really struck out to me is just the juxtaposition of kind of the old and the new. There's times where people are using these high-powered rifles, the Leikas that are you know, these really you know high-end uh optics, and then you got people that are using, you know, old Winchester 3030s, and then you have, of course, uh the use of all these ancient relics of the past, then stone tools and projectiles and arrowheads, of course, of which uh I am much of a fan and a you know a student of nature in that sense. But that was something that I love the juxtaposition of kind of the the past ways and the present and how the viewpoints change in within your characters uh in that realm. And I was just wanting to, you know, talk to you about that and how you incorporated that. What was that like for you to bring that into the into your book?

SPEAKER_00: 7:49

There is an artifact in there, and I'm not gonna say how it's used, it's a mute knife, and uh that was actually found in Garden of the Gods, West Colorado Springs. That knife was found, and uh because I did I always look up stuff. I just I I'm a lithic guy, and I think that that um the guy that pawns this job off on Mace, you know, he is the ultimate old school guy. And uh um Mace is really of the past to his father, through his passion for lithic artifacts, you know, and he he disdains, you know, uh gadgetry, hunting gadgetry. He knows it works, it's good for some people, but he still is a guy that can read the wind, literally the barometric pressure, the light, because he's he was born doing it. And I thought, you know, I want that. I want he he's a really old soul, he's a lithic soul, and uh uh that's what these people that that take him underestimate. And the thing I liked about the thing I wanted about these people coming from a faraway place, and believe me, Phoenix is a faraway place from where I live. Those guys are from Phoenix, the other guys are from Eastern Europe. Well, you're not home anymore, and things are done differently, the weather's different, and uh uh uh you've decided to to abuse and use a guy who was at the the you know the bottom of his luck, the bottom of his life. And um, they knew all about that. They all knew all about taking advantage of him, they all knew what happened to him. It's kind of like picking up a snake that's just kind of like dozing because it's cool, and then you handle him enough, he's gonna wake up. And that's what happens. Mace wakes up, and he's it's what he's made for, and so you can say he's made to hunt. If you're made to hunt, hunting people is cake. You know, they uh they go down easy and they make mistakes that animals don't make. And uh that's what I want. I wanted I wanted them to basically how would you say it? Well, I don't I don't want to give away too much. They have him, they have him, and yet they don't really know what they have. They continually underestimate him, they continually keep him high, you know, keep him from getting the DTs, all these things. And uh I wanted these to be the the couple, they are pure, super capable predators. And um, but they're not home, they're not in their thing. Same with the people that are coming from far away.

SPEAKER_01: 11:05

Yeah, no, I mean it even just like the way you you you talk about their you know, these assassins, right? They are very capable of making uh these long-range shots if they were to try to make them. They have the highest equipment, they got the kestrels around. They're like, oh, we can read all these things, and then Mace is like, yeah, or Will, you know, they're like there's people that are the old school traditional learns and they're like, Yeah, but it's different here. Everything's different here. And that is a kind of like you even when you're just talking about them pulling out the maps, right? They see something different than the way that people who are born and raised in that environment see the little flickers of things that they notice that other people don't, the pressure, the systems when the snow is coming down, all the things that they're acutely aware of. And at the same time, one thing that we see too with Mace, you know, and again, I don't want to give too much away, but he has these visions and he thinks he's literally seeing things. And it's like, oh, is he, you know, is this an alcohol, alcohol withdrawal thing? Is he maybe high? Um, but then you have it through a lot of different characters. They have these premonitions and these moments and these visions of people, and I love how you bring in these characters of the past that intertwine with everyone's story and kind of create that roadmap, and they're there in a visual sense in the mind of the person who's talking about them. Obviously, they're not there, it's not like there's ghosts that they're seeing, but in a mental in a mental sense, they are. And I really liked that you included that. I thought that was a really um important element at play throughout the different characters who have that happen.

SPEAKER_00: 12:34

Well, the the two targets, the two guys that are in trouble, mace and dragan cortic, aka the monster, they are so they are they are both running from the past. Will Stoddard, the older guide, he is our logical, reasonable, god-fearing man, and and also a perfectionist. And you know, it's like Mace sees things, Dragen Kordic sees things that he has done. You know, they both done different scale of terrible things, but they are both in their own mystical universe. Will Stoddard is in the here and now, and but he had his own premonition. He had premonitions that this would be a rather special hunt. He had his own premonitions. He did not want to help this guy, he did not want this client. Just talking to him on the phone put him off. And then, and yet, you know, this is sort of inevitability to uh that was the real fun, is that creating this inevitable thing from these components they come from other continents, other states, other consciousness consciousness places, and they they they all come together in this one drainage. And there is a phrase that's actually in the second book, and I didn't I didn't make it up. Nature bats last. And that's that's why one of them kicks loose a rock, the animal hears. No, not gonna happen because nature bats last, but that snowstorm was a real snowstorm in the early 1900s in Montrose County, Colorado. It was called the Thanksgiving snowstorm at the time, and it came way early, and it was three feet of snow. And the second I read about it, I thought that's what happens. Because once you do that, once you bring in this huge that that's the that's the existential threat to everybody is that is the blizzard and changes how everyone works, changes how the animals feel. And it's just me putting the pedal to the metal about the elements, nature bats last, because it would have been totally different without that storm. It might have gone as other people might have won. But you know, that that's why you know I really I live I live up there about half the year, right there. The Uncum Pagri Plateau, it's across the road from me. It's a million and a half acres. And um, I wander it, I wander my place. And writing that book, that just came out of me because I I uh you know I am I am a I am a gun person, but I don't hunt much anymore. But I have all these friends that are so deep in it, especially the bow hunters. I took a lot of their, they really helped me with some stuff. And uh uh of of um bow hunters are so much more. I don't know if you're a bow hunter. I do a little bit, yeah. Yeah, so you know, you you're you're it's just much more boots on the ground type of thing. There's no technology. And uh uh I I I picked all those guys' brains. I have a whole truckload of those people sit on my deck, looking over my little valley, drink beer. There'll be nine times out of ten, there's a bunch of help across the way, and um you know that's how the stuff just kind of flowed out of my place into me. But that's where the book came from. It just came really through the soles of my boots up to me. Because when I'm there, uh every minute I go wander, I look for arrowheads. And I just wandered and I go, I ask my buddies if I can trust. I I there's a big ranch next to me, 11,000 acres, old place, and um I know them, and I and I I I I trespass at will, they're fine, not arrowheads. They're they they find it a little odd that I that I'm that I'm there all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 16:57

It's my favorite thing to hunt. I mean, and I love hunting and you know, being out there with wildlife, and you know, I think I'm just as quick to to sit there and and take a shot with a camera these days, but I just love going and finding these things and the relics of our past. And I love how you intertwine that with your story, uh, and how you know they became a big part and component of things and that kind of juxtaposition again. And uh, you know, when you're talking too about just like the people that were kind of you know, the the locals, right? The people who are from those areas, and then you got the other people coming out, and again, that juxtaposition. But I love how there's a loyalty amongst those people and the support for mace that comes in too was paramount. And you could see that like people, you know, there's a lot of people in this community that would do anything for you, and you find that out later on uh about that kind of loyalty and that strength of that community, uh that and and kind of that you know, insider versus outsider thing too. Of course, you got people, I'm gonna pay all this money to kill the biggest elk. And you know, you got these folks that are coming through and they might not practice or anything. And, you know, and it all some of those things, you know, confuse the mind too. Even like when you talk about like Will, like, you know, oh, there's that time he's like, I don't even know if my guy can take this shot at this bull. He didn't go through his normal circumstances. Everything was a little bit spin-off than what people were were used to. And I I love that element of that there's a there's this building chaos, even when things may seem calm, you know that there's something on the horizon. Um, a lot of suspense and and thrills that were always there at every turn, man. It just kind of felt like that one little rock that that L card was like the snowballing effect throughout this full story. And I I know people are gonna absolutely love this book, man. I I could not put it down, Pat. It was it's it's a masterpiece, man. Thank you. I really, I, I really do. And I I feel that. And I I want to dive back in a little bit to the idea of how when you know you started working on this, when did you first pick the pick up the pen for this? And what was that like uh as far as like a timeline from beginning to end on the first book? And I know you're working on the second one now, but the idea of like what was this like for your journey in writing that? And as a writer, I'm always curious how people uh tackle that.

SPEAKER_00: 19:01

Well, as a it it was a complete uh I sort of retired from screenwriting biz. And like I say, I had a good run, and I you know, the the last 10 years of that, just to put it in perspective, I was just a I was a rewrite guy. So, you know, you you you you you are you are overpaid and stuff, and then that that time in Hollywood's over now, and uh that feature world, but that was in and out type of stuff, and then I did a lot of it from up in my place, and um they come back here, you know, to my home here and went back and forth. But when when when that process of screenwriting is only helpful in one thing that you already touched on, and that is description. Because remember, the only the the difference between a book, a novel, and a screenplay is you cannot say what someone is thinking in a screenplay. You can have a narrator, you can have a voiceover, you can have the guy talking to the mirror. But those are just devices. You know, the gift of novel is the reason anyone reads a novel is you know what they're thinking. And that really appealed to me. And um, I have some novelist buddies that are quite successful, and they uh they were they were um they were very helpful. They said, okay, first of all, you're gonna throw away twice what's in the book when you end up with it, and a few things like that, and you're gonna laugh at what you get paid compared to what you got paid before. And I was like, uh, okay, uh, that's okay with me. That's okay. I'm I want to go, George. I wanted to go downstream. I wanted to go downstream with me, what I have already with me. I I don't wanna I don't want to hear anyone else's ideas, uh um, unless they're doctors and I'm in trouble. No. Um, so the process began with began with um, and actually some of my novelist buddies were very helpful about picking a subject. This is what most novelists, first-time novelists, uh, the disaster portion of the program is you pick something, you spend all this time, and no one cares. And so there were I they they were very they were very clear to me. I had I had a couple other ideas. I some one of them was about archaeology, because I'm an archaeology freak, about arrowhead stuff. And they would say, Do you really want to spend three years for that? And I would go, Well, we're three years, whoa, wait a minute. You know, it was you know, this is the the the the the the the the fast lane screenwriter guy like okay, okay. Anyway, I I I incubated a few ideas. This one was the first one. I didn't tell anyone about it. I fussed with it. I went, I sort of ran out, showed people my buddies' things, you know, have a beer talk about it. This idea basically disgrace guide, long-range payback plans from afar, show up here, uh uh the two the thing that I got it, I got a universal that's it. That's it. Just do that because I could talk about it, I could completely talk it through in in the world. And these guys are, you know, these guys are uh what would I call them, flatlanders and tenderfoots. Uh, but they knew a good story when they heard it. In fact, one person said, God, that would make that's the best screenplay idea I've ever heard. I can still hear him saying it. And I was like, no. So really, it's it's it's really about for a writer who's been a working writer for a long time. It was turning my back on what I didn't know how to do, but what I knew all about. And that was never dull. And I did throw away twice what ended in it, but the the process, the process becomes a very simple thing. What what can you do with the cleanest impact on the story? And what is unexpected, and um um gosh, you know, it it I won't say it wrote itself because it was just tremendous work, but I had all the time in the world. And that is what that was really the saving thing, is I had time to go back and think about it and get rid of stuff. And um, you know, the majority of readers in the country are women that read novels. It's it skews female by quite a bit. And um my wife is such a person she reads a novel a week, like clockwork. And she was kind of a frontline reader, but you know, she's she's tainted because she's in Colorado all the time and knows all these hunters and everything else. And I got I got I got really strong support from her, and also not blind support that this works, you know what I mean? And a spousal review doesn't really count, but it helped. And so so the whole writing process would be coming up with good things, throwing away half of them, and then and then and then getting back to it. And I'm a morning guy, I get everything done seven to noon or one, and then you're you're you you can you you you can't do much else in my experience. That's just I don't know how you do it, but um this was this was this was really the luxury of me having this place for almost three decades and being able to make make the reader, and this is me saying hopefully, feel like they're standing there without overdoing the flora and fauna. What are you what you know, there's other writers that really go deep and their books are a lot thicker than mine, and I and I'm and I it's okay, but I you know what I mean? Yeah, it's uh uh uh I don't want to write it for an ornologist or a plant person, but I wish I just wanted them, I wanted to share the magic, high-speed weather, high altitude life that I am lucky to have all the time. And I could the elk right by my house, all this elk right by my house, right now in the snow. I see them on the cameras. They're sitting where I where we park our vehicles right in front of the house. And they're foraging, they're kicking stuff up, and it's just so ironic all around. And I'll be sitting there on my on my deck, and the elk see me, see that, see the same dog in the book. And if it's summer, spring or summer, they're just like, hey, there's just no tension. It is true. Then my buddies come up first week, there's no elk. It is uh, I think that's a true thing. Weather changes, sounds change, all bets are off, they split.

SPEAKER_01: 26:14

Well, that idea too, like you talked about just there, like there is something that they know that there's trouble. They have that that that sixth sense about them. And you have that with like you know, I mentioned it earlier too, with like your characters as well, and even with your dog, right? Like Vince is is Mason and uh hit and Jamie's dog there, and you know, modeled after uh your dog, Willa, there, but like you, you every single character, for the most part, has some awareness or they're acute to something else that's going on. And kind of whenever you're out in those surroundings, um, especially in that hunting world, man, you know, a lot of times I think there was a description you had there in the book where uh a character knew something was going on by looking at how the animal was looking in a different direction. You know, a lot of times when I'm hunting, all of a sudden, you know, the birds start going off in an area. Something's happening over there. And I tell, you know, people that I'm with, look over here, something's about to come out, or something's happening that we can't see, but I know that there's an element of something at play because of how everything else, everything is related and that sense. And I loved how you did paint that picture, not only of just like feeling I'm right there on the hunt or I'm on the porch or whatever it is. I think you did a really great job. And I think like you said it too, it comes back to like you're writing what you know, not an idea of what you think this would be. It is something in your background, it is something in your blood and your history of where you've walked, and that authentic storytelling is paramount to be able to deliver uh something this rich.

SPEAKER_00: 27:43

No, it is, and I I'm as I say, I'm I'm I'm flattered that you think that. And you know, I wasn't really ready until I did it. And I think that any other writer, especially a younger writer, just uh some things you might you just might not be ready, but you will be. And uh I I wasn't ready till I was ready. You know, I wasn't ready till I was ready, and it was a million little clues. Yeah, I have a big this big deck, and it drops away into this little valley with the stream, and it's it's lots of habitat. And I'll be at my desk, which looks out over it, and I'll see a bull way over there. Um I'm saying about four or five hundred yards. And he's just he's standing there with uh you know some cows, they're just standing around, and they're very relaxed. Willa does not bark. She does not bark, she just goes. There's no, there's no there's no, I'm coming to get you. It's just like she goes. And um I'll walk out on the I'll ease open the door of the porch and close it really softly, and step out on the porch. I look up, and that ball is like this. He's just looking at me from four or five hundred yards away. He's just gone, then what's that over there? And he's just looking at me, and then he'll then he will just walk off. But they and then they all follow him. And yeah, that I've seen that so many times. The level of sensitivity to any sound that does not make sense to them. And I I just I just like that stuff. And I also I also like that um with the with the bad guys, you know, it's what you don't respect that's gonna get you in at all times. What you don't have respect for is gonna bite you. And that's that's sort of uh um I can't claim not to be a city guy. I lived in New York and LA most of my life with these big slabs of time in the mountains. But you know, there there was also uh the thing of talking to people about the book, and they go, well, especially people here and back there, though, uh uh how many are there a lot of elk around? And I go, Yeah, there's a lot of them around. No, no, and my friend shot the last one.

SPEAKER_01: 29:56

The last one, it was it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:58

The the the the last one, yeah. I was so proud of him, and uh uh it you get you bunch of him bump into that's like I'm just you know, like publishing is very bicostal, and um I was thrilled there that they were they they uh they embraced it, but uh I didn't have anything else I wanted to write. So I'm not and this is about the the thing about screenwriting, it's writing to suit. You are a tailor, you are a uh you're a tailor. And and the the novel thing is is uh is uh far more unlikely and far more thrilling. And so you just have to decide you're gonna take that thrill.

SPEAKER_01: 30:46

You were talking about like presenting this uh you know to them and and with that's Emily Bessler uh books and Simon and Schuster. I was curious how you found your way to them. And um, you know, I I'm very familiar with with them and and their work and such, and I feel like this is a perfect home for you for the this book. Um, but I was curious just kind of how that connection uh came to be.

SPEAKER_00: 31:08

I hear from my guys that uh Emily Bessler from Simon, she's just gonna call you at some point in time here. And I said, Okay, about when she says, Okay, so she calls me. I see the call from New York, and um we get on the she's upstate somewhere walking in the woods with her dogs or something, and she goes, Well, gosh, what a darn good book, and I said, Well, thank you. She goes, No, Rich Gosh, it's just a garn, a darn good book. And then I go, Well, thank you. Thank you. And I'm waiting, what are we gonna get into? And she goes, How long would it take you to write another one? And I said, Well, not as long as it took me to write this one, and that was pretty much all we talked about, and then they bought it, and uh, well, they made us an offer and we went with them. So, so that was that was the process old contact from my screenwriting life, but a guy who's you know, a place like the Creative Artists Agency, they inhale novels every day for writers, directors, producers. That is the this uh Matthew is kind of the guardian of the portal. He reads everything, and he is a complete novel-centric guy, and uh that's why I sent it to him. And I knew, I knew he reads everything. If it wasn't up to snuff, he would just tell me sincerely, respectfully, and we could go. And that that was a key, key blessing from my past life that I had someone that would not bullshit me. And what could be more valuable when you've put three years of your life into something and either gets blown away on the wind or something happens to it? So that was a huge uh blessing to have uh Matthew in my life and to and to love it, and um and then to guide me into you know uh 20th TV is option the book, you know. I got a great uh thing going with them, and uh um um to guide you to guide me through who we who do we let the book go to, you know, in TV or film. And he was also my guardian angel with that, and um so yeah, so it was it was um as I'm telling you this story, it sounds uh bizarrely dreamlike that you know if you'd made up what you wanted to happen, it would happen. So I'm I'm I'm very conscious of the dreamlike quality of my of my first novel.

SPEAKER_01: 33:49

And rifle season, it's it is by far one of the best books I've read. Period. I read books all the time. I love the thriller genre. I love that this has mystery thriller, there's stories camouflaged within stories, that the outdoor world too, the hunting world. There is something for every single person here. Uh, I think there's it's just great, man. I mean, that really I'd I'd highly suggest everyone pick it up. Uh, I think it's gonna be one of the best books of 2026. And uh, you know, Pat, this is this is a profound uh first novel, man. Congratulations for this. I can't wait for it to come out.

SPEAKER_00: 34:26

George, I I've said it before, Flatter doesn't really doesn't really cut it. I just very uh love talking to you. And um I love that you like the idea of the second book too.

SPEAKER_01: 34:40

So you know, for anybody who's who is listening right now, and obviously you you can't not be excited here, you can go and pre-order the book right now and go to the Simon Schuster page. I'll have all the links in the show notes below. Uh, make sure you guys go order Rifle Season Again's coming out January 27th, the novel of the year. I'm calling it right now, from Pat Kelly. Pat, it has been an absolute honor and a pleasure to sit down with you today. I really thoroughly enjoy it. Is there anything that you'd like to have as parting words on maybe those who are about to pick this book up and join you for this journey, or uh those who have maybe helped support you along the way?

SPEAKER_00: 35:17

Those who've helped me support me along the way, they're meant they're mentioned in the book. But as far as like what I would say to the readers, um, gosh, I don't know. I would just be um I'm I'm thrilled that I'm thrilled to hear what you think. And uh I'm I'm I'm proud of my book. And I'm I'm proud of where it comes from. And I hope people enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01: 35:41

Well, I know they will. Thank you again, Pat, so much for joining me. And uh make sure everyone place your orders so you get this book in your hand January 27th. Okay, man. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.