Origins And Early Career Lessons

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, this is Jason Pfeiffer. I'm editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, and you are listening to the Son of a Blitch podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Jason, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you doing today? I am doing very well. How are you? Fantastic, man. Well, I'm excited to chat about all sorts of things in the entrepreneur business world. But you know, a little bit of introduction is always good for my guests. So why don't you go ahead and tell everyone kind of where you grew up and then how you kind of got into uh this business world as a media guy and then maybe working with Entrepreneur Magazine?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Oh, yeah, sure. Well, it's a whole long journey. Let me see what I can condense it down to. So I mean, I grew up, because you asked, I grew up in South Florida and now I live in Brooklyn, New York. And I uh the most important thing that I learned in growing my career, and now I think also in the world of entrepreneurship is something that I learned at my very first job. So let me tell you about that before I tell you how I got to entrepreneurs. So my very first job was I was a community newspaper reporter in North Central Massachusetts, covering like nothing, right? Like nothing's going on. I'm like writing about middle school dances and stuff. And I, after about a year, got very bitter there because I had these visions of me doing big things and writing for national public. And that wasn't happening. And I was waiting and waiting for somebody to recognize my greatness. And eventually what I realized was nobody's coming to me. I have to go to them. And so I quit that job and I sat in my bedroom in a dumpy apartment next to a graveyard, paying $500 a month in rent. And I just started cold pitching editors. And eventually I started to get the foundation of what my actual career would be. I started to write for the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Boston Globe, and so on. I started to accelerate this media journey that I was on, that it would eventually transform into an entrepreneurial journey. But when I look back on it now, what I what I came to realize was that a thing that I had done that I didn't have the words for at the time, but that I can communicate to you now, like

Opportunity Set A vs. B

SPEAKER_00 2:10

this is I worked my next job. And I say that, but like even if you're an entrepreneurship, you work your next job. Here's how it goes. In front of you right now, there are two sets of opportunities. Opportunity set A, opportunity set B. Opportunity set A is everything that's asked of you. So whatever you are measured by every day, that is the thing that you have to do to just uh fulfill people's expectations of you. If you're employed, to continue to be employed, if you are an entrepreneur, to continue to provide the services that you have provided. But then there is also opportunity set B. Opportunity set B is everything that's available to you that nobody is asking you to do. And that could again be anything. That could be exploring a new product or service or learning more about your customers and seeing what they want that nobody's asking for, but you're gonna figure out. Or it could be that you like podcasts and you decide to start your own podcast, whatever. Anyway, what I have discovered throughout the course of my career, over and over and over again, is that opportunity set B, the thing that is asked of you, I'm sorry, opportunity set B, the thing that is available to you that nobody's asking you to do, more important. Infinitely more important. Because if you only focus on opportunity set A, you're only qualified to do the things that you're already doing, and you're already, you're only delivering the things that people already expect of you. And that is where narrowness comes from, and that is where loss of opportunity comes from. Growth comes from pursuing the things nobody's asking you for. So how did I get to where I am now? Honestly, it was just doing that over and over and over again. I got into national magazines, I moved to New York. I just kept doing that. I kept pushing outward into things that nobody was asking me to do. I was started by freelancing for other magazines, but then I started to teach, and then I started to consult, and then I started to speak on stages, and then I started to go on TV, and I just did these things over and over again that just grew me. And now I run Entrepreneur Magazine, but I also have my own company. Uh, well, I have a media company called Pfeiffer Media, and then I have a company that helps CPG founders called CPG Fast Track. I produce a ton of my own media. I travel, I speak, I sit on a lot of advisory boards, I do a lot of consulting, and all of that is opportunity set B.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

So when you're, I mean, some people may be complacent in a job with their happy, hey, I got this, I got you know good money, I have the prestige that you've kind of built up to. But you those people who are those entrepreneur mindsets are always chasing that next thing. What do you see on that horizon that you're chasing? Obviously, you're building, and you know, we'll talk about that vertical stacking here in a minute, but what do you see on that horizon that you are hoping to achieve or to be able to

Building Autonomy Of Time

SPEAKER_01 4:40

put that next brick in that foundation for?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

The thing that I work towards is very abstract, but very simple. And that is this phrase, full autonomy of my time. That's what I want. I just want full autonomy of my time. That's it. And that means to me, uh, number one, controlling how I spend all my time and not being in situations where I feel like other people have command of my time. So, right now, for example, I straddle these two worlds where I am an employee of entrepreneur media, which means that I don't have full command over my own time. I mean, I have a lot of command over my own time, right? I mean, I primarily do whatever the hell I want, but I do have a boss that I have to report to. And so, and uh, and then there are these other things that I'm building where, you know, I have relationships with people and commitments that I make. And so uh, if I say I'm gonna do something, then I'm going to do it. But I consider that to be full autonomy of my own time. I'm choosing how to spend that time, but I want to also be able to walk away and have coffee with somebody for an hour and a half. I want to be able to travel at will. I want full control over my own time. And so this has been a very long-term project for me for a very long time because I used to be a magazine editor, but I didn't have all this other stuff. And I didn't have this kind of autonomy. And I was just in an office, and people are putting calls on my calendar all day, and I hated it. And so I have been very slowly, methodically building things that I own so that I have a fully ownable foundation. And frankly, right now, I have it. I mean, I could leave Entrepreneur tomorrow, financially speaking, and I think just in terms of how people know me, I think enough people know me now that I could build my own stuff. But I like it. I like it. I I it's a great brand to be a part of. It's an honor to hold this title. I don't need to walk away right now, and so I'm not going to. Uh, I'm gonna juggle these things for as long as it makes sense for both sides for this relationship to continue like that. Um, but uh I think that everybody should be working towards something that is at once specific but abstract, so that it's not anchored to something that's easily changeable. If I said the thing that I want most of all is to be the editor-in-chief of a magazine, well, hoo boy, that means that I gotta hold on real tight and I gotta worry every single day about everything that happens. Uh uh, you know, and and every time that my boss, Fred Entrepreneur, calls, I got to worry, is this the day he's gonna fire me? And that's just a terrible place to be. So I do not like anchoring to specifics, I like anchoring to abstractions.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

So when you talk about these other things you have going on outside of that, you know, typical nine to five day as far as your work with Entrepreneur Magazine. I mean, you have a lot going on. You've had a book under your belt, you got a couple of podcasts. Will you kind of tell people who may not be familiar with some of those other avenues and outlets that you have uh to maybe, you know, give a little one-on-one on those? Maybe you know, start with the podcasts and what you have going with those. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

All right. Well, look, I uh let me like brace yourselves because I'm gonna like I I could say a whole bunch of stuff and then you're not gonna do any of it. Right. Look before I do it, do any of this actually? Can I just tell you there is a phrase that I love, which is tyranny of choice? And there is a wonderful study that I think came out of Columbia University, but somebody might fact check me on that, in which uh a professor had their students set up a like a little like samples table at a grocery store where they were sampling jellies. And they ran this experiment where every hour they would switch between having six jellies on the table and 20 jellies on the table, and then watched what happened. And what happened was fascinating.

Tyranny Of Choice And Focus

SPEAKER_00 8:20

What happened? Well, actually, have you heard this study? You know what I'm talking about? No. Okay. So, all right. So, what do you think happened between when there were six jellies on the table and 20 jellies on the table? And and when I say happened, I mean what happened in terms of how many people stopped to actually sample jellies and how many people actually bought jellies.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

I would think that the six is where more people are stopping and purchasing because there is less of a choice and more of a direct path towards what that that focus, I guess. And as far as being way overwhelmed with all too many and looking at that and go, Oh, okay, maybe it's too much to choose from. My daughter has a a business that she's done with uh making boba, and the more options, the less people that came through, and we realize we kind of dwindle it down to having fewer choices. So that's gonna be my thought.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, that's very interesting. So you saw it happen in real life. So uh you're you're you're mostly correct, but not fully correct. So when there were 20 jellies on the table, more people stopped and sampled. But when there were six jellies on the table, more people purchased. So really interesting. Because if you're looking at the wrong signal, then you're gonna get the wrong outcome. If they think that people stopping and sampling is a good thing, then you pile more and more jellies on the table. But that's who cares who how many people are sampling? What matters is who's gonna convert. And so conversion is happening when there are fewer options. So, anyway, because of that, I actually do not generally list off like all the different things that I do because nobody's gonna do any of it. So um, so I will just tell you, let me let me just I'll just boil it down to two things, which is like number one, if you listen to podcasts, and presumably you do, because how else would you be hearing me right now? Then I have a podcast of my own. It's called Help Wanted, in which I

Help Wanted And One Thing Better

SPEAKER_00 10:00

co-host with my friend Nicole Lappin, who's a best-selling money expert. And each week we talk about sticky work problems and share a lot of the things that we are, our failures and what we are stuck on right now. And oh my God, I just had this awkward encounter and what am I supposed to do about it? And it's really fun and it feels really cathartic and it unpacks the challenge of being a professional. Um, and then also I write a weekly newsletter, which is called One Thing Better each week, one way to be more successful and satisfied and build a career or company that you love. I get week, I get emails every week from people who are like, I have unsubscribed from literally every email except for this one. So thank you. And I I love to hear that. So anyway, you can find that at onthingbetter.emil, which is a web address. Just plug it into a browser, one thingbetter.emil. But yeah, then I I I make I make just tons of other stuff. Uh social media, I actually have another podcast. I wrote a book, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But maybe if I give you those two things, help want it and one thing better, you might pick one.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Well, and I do want to talk about the book, Build for Tomorrow. It's a best-selling book, and it's phenomenal. And I know you kind of talk about the four

Frameworks For Change

SPEAKER_01 11:05

phases of change, and that's something that I kind of want to drive into. Uh you talk about the four stages, panic, adaptation, new normal, wouldn't go back. Will you go ahead and maybe kind of you know elaborate a little bit on those principles there? And then I want to, you know, key in on a few things there.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Yeah, sure. Well, so it's funny. Uh, let me like get meta with you for a second, um, which is when I started this journey of I like thought leadership is such a stupid term that I don't really like, but like, you know, kind of living inside the marketplace of ideas is how I tend to think of it. Like I'm competing in the marketplace of ideas. Um, what I what I realized was that you needed a you need a framework. Uh like it I was just advising a very successful founder on this uh just before our call, actually, that that if you just have a bunch of stories and you have a bunch of insights, it's it can be useful, but it is also forgettable. So you need a framework. You need like a big umbrella framework, uh, which is like a big concept. And then you need to be able to break it down instructionally by uh like phase. And so you need to be able to say, yes, to do that, you need to do this and this and this, right? And so I have taken these ideas that I've had over time and then turned them into little frameworks. You just heard one with the work your next job, opportunity set A, opportunity set B, right? Like that it sounds more impressive than if I had just kind of said all that without having a structure to it. So um, so the first real major framework that I came up with when I realized that I was gonna plant a flag in change management. It's my speaking topic. I get paid a lot of money to give corporate keynotes on it. Um, I came up with this story, which was that all change happens in four phases: panic, adaptation, new normal wouldn't go back. And it worked really well for a book. Uh, like I organized the book that way. Uh so each each section is one of those things. The idea is like, how do you navigate big change in your career? Well, first you panic. And so, like, let's understand that. And why do we panic? And how do we quell the panic? Um, but I found that it was actually, once I started to take it out and and do interviews with it, I found that it was actually a little hard because then people would want to walk through it each and be like, okay, well, then how do we deal with new normal? And I'd be like, uh, I don't I don't know. I just have like a bunch of ideas that I put under the umbrella term of new normal. So so it's funny. So now I've actually thrown it out and I don't really use it. We could talk about it, but I don't actually use it that much now. Instead, I realized that what I was really saying all along was that to thrive in times of change, what you have to do is develop a unique personal relationship with change. And that unique personal relationship with change requires rethinking fundamental things about the way in which you work and your relationship to your work. So when I when I talk on stage, I have five of them. You rethink your identity, your reactions, your process, your uh uh whatever something. I don't know. I'm doing this off the top of my head. I don't I'm not in my keynote mindset. Um, your your identity, your, your reactions, your process, your words, your needs. There it is. Um, and so that's how I found it. And so I really, I strongly recommend if anyone ever wants to kind of participate in the marketplace of ideas, sort of like compete in social media or building a newsletter or anything, really push yourself to have a framework that you can stand behind, and then you can like drill down into specific things. So it's like I have the the the unique personal relationship with change, and then I've got these five things, and then within these five things is always like a story and an exercise, and then I got like a lot of other stuff that's like in a constellation around that that's different, but that's how you do it. So, anyway, that was a real roundabout way of getting to your your question about the the four things. But um, but let's

Adaptability As A Core Advantage

SPEAKER_00 14:40

dig into it.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah, well, the the thing about adaptability, you know, I I've I've heard you, I've heard Gary V and other folks talk about this idea of like the reserving the right to change your mind or to change the structure of whatever you got going on. A lot of entrepreneurs, maybe they get dead set on this idea of A to B, I'm gonna go here. And then there's things that come along that can change that. And some people just stick to that straight and narrow line without being able to adapt and overcome and be able to take new experiences or facts or whatever it is or or new pathways and lines, and especially in a day and age now where we have different AI things coming along that can kind of change the structure of how you even run businesses and just the idea of social everything that's happened. I remember having entrepreneur magazines when I was 20 years old as a young entrepreneur and starting out now and thinking about that, just you know, having something in your hand. Now everything is so much more uh interactive and accessible. So I think that the idea, and you've keyed on it too, about the adaptability and having that being one of the most professional, valuable traits that people can have as an entrepreneur. And I was just wanting you to kind of you know give a little bit more insight about that and and your personal thoughts on it.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Oh, yeah, sure. Well, uh, you know, I uh the reason I came to that as a subject was because people kept asking me, okay, so first of all, if you listen if you listen to the questions that people ask you, you will discover what they're really doing is that they're telling you what they think your value is to them. What they think your value is to them. That is actually a pretty profound thing because it means that you're able to pick up this great signal in the market about where you can deliver a lot of value and where you can fulfill what people already expect of you, and therefore what they might pay you for or hire you for, whatever. So I was finding that people were asking me at the very beginning of when I became editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, they were asking me, what are the qualities of successful people? That's what they and I was like, why is everyone asking that? Why, like independently of each other, why are they all asking that question? And I realized it's because, oh, they perceive me as a person who has access to everybody, kind of sits at the intersection of all of these different ideas and experiences, so I can see the patterns among them, which is not untrue. I do have incredible access to people. So I thought, well, I need an answer to this question. Like, this is the next step. And what I realized was that the everyone who I was talking to who had succeeded in a meaningful way had all departed wildly from whatever their original idea or path was, and that they all had some kind of interesting, like like uh they were all sanguine about it. Like they they they all had just a kind of um a level of detachment from any specific direction, and instead just an understanding of like the general thing that they needed to accomplish. And I really admired that, and I wanted to understand how they were doing it because it seemed to be critical to their success. And so that's where I started to just get get to study it. And look, I'd say that the starting point is similar to something that I said a minute ago about like my own goal, where I have this idea of like full autonomy of my own time and how it's this abstract way of stating something so that it's not anchored to, let's say, running a magazine. So we tend to identify too closely with the output of our work or the role that we occupy. So if someone came up to you at a party and asked what you did, you'd be like, oh, well, I do blank at blank company, or I started this kind of company, or I am this kind of professional. And the problem with that is just it's just so easily changeable. And so if we anchor our identity to changeable things, then as soon as that stuff changes, we feel protective of it and we try to hold on to it. So

Rethinking Identity And Transferable Value

SPEAKER_00 18:20

I realized the really, the really smart entrepreneurs that I was meeting were all articulating what they do in a pretty specific kind of abstraction. They were also, it was like the the owner of a baking mix company saying, I don't sell baking mixes, I bring joy to people with sweet baked goods. And it's the president of a cosmetics company who says, I don't, I sell cosmetics, I help people reclaim their sense of self. And and I started to think of that as the thing that does not change in times of change. I realize it's a kind of personal mission statement where every word is carefully selected because it is not anchored to something easily changeable. So it's the difference between I am a magazine editor, which is so changeable, as we've already described, and I tell stories in my own voice, which is something that I do every day, all the time. I do it in all the formats that we've already talked about. I do it here with you right now. And so if I can identify what my transferable value is and feel really comfortable living inside of that, then I open the world to myself because I realize that every change is just a new opportunity to do what I already do best. And that is what I am hoping for everybody to reveal for themselves. So that is the starting point, and that is the reason why I think that adaptability is so critical. Because if you are anchored to the old, you will never discover the new.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Very true, man. And you, you know, I when you were talking about that, I'm sure, because it's a question you've you've interviewed so many top-tier individuals. Yeah. And, you know, I'm I I can see how that would be a question a lot of people bring to you. I was curious, you know, maybe it's not even those people you've interviewed, but who have been some of the mentors in your life that have really struck with you and why were those people very important in building who you are, what you want to do, the, you know, being able to figure out whatever that is and being able to be a stronger storyteller, a better family man, better father, better husband, you know, businessman, whatever that is. Who are some of those mentors that have kind of guided you? And uh yeah, just kind of curious about that.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

You know, it's funny, I don't have a good answer to that question. I I have nobody in my life that I think of as a mentor, and I never have. Um, I have lots of great models around me, right? Like my parents are great, my wife is great. I I'm surrounded by good people. Um, but but I I don't I don't think of anybody in my life ever as a mentor, as somebody that I consistently turn to. Like I actually I know that mentorship comes up a lot in entrepreneurship, and I and I have like a lot to say about it as a as a topic, but but I actually don't have a image of it in my own head because I've never really experienced it. Instead, I I've always kind of moved through the world in some way thinking of myself as a collector and a reflector. Like the thing that I know how to do is get personal with people, draw interesting things out of them, and then repeat that to other people. And and I found that my brain works best through that process. Uh, I I don't read business books, I don't listen to business podcasts. Sorry, I'm sure yours is excellent. Um, but like I don't I don't I a lot of the things that I produce, I would not consume. I I I I love standing on stage and giving keynotes. I hate watching anybody else on stage. Like I just I have no patience for it at all. Um and that's because that's not how my brain works. Like I just can't absorb information that's being directed at me. I can only absorb information if it's interactive, if I'm having a conversation

Mentors, Models, And Learning Style

SPEAKER_00 22:00

with someone. And then if the next thing that I do is I find some way to take something that I learned from them and turn around and teach it to somebody else. And that's when it sticks in my head and it starts to attach itself to other knowledge that I've accumulated. So I feel like I am walking around with like the whole world as a mentor in some way. And you know, people ask me questions and it's like, oh, well, that reminds me of this thing that Ryan Reynolds said to me, or that reminds me of this thing that I learned from the like the founder of Dogfish Brewing, or like whatever, just random stuff. And um, and it's just that it's just that it's that collection. Um, and maybe that's also because I'm a fiercely independent person. I I just um I operate better by myself. I have, I don't want anyone teaching me anything. Like I won't, I can't deal with an instruction manual. I've never turned on YouTube to learn anything. It's just not how I operate. And so um, so, but you know, again, it really comes down to like doing a self-audit and being like, how do I function? How does my brain work? And then let me just build the structures and the patterns around that to optimize how I am instead of trying to be something that I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Which I think is a great lesson too for anybody who's getting into a business, having that entrepreneurial mindset is to find your strengths, know what actually you're passionate about, and drive forward with those things. And I think if you kind of move forward with that mentality of such you were talking about, you're going to be able to be much more the the performance is going to at least, even if it doesn't, if it falls flat, you're at least doing the thing that you find is authentic and enjoyable, I guess, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah, that's right. I, you know, there's no one way to do things. And and and that I I always want to caveat that with everything that I talk about in in these kinds of forums, because you know, I I think that people are often looking for that magic, that magic way. I remember when I was when I identified more purely as a writer, occasionally I would go to like book readings by authors that I really liked. And then you'd get to the QA session, and then people in the audience would always raise their hand and they'd always be like, um, so when in the morning do you write? And like, so what what kind of pen do you use? And they're there what they're looking for is some kind of very hyper-specific formula and model. And that's just not how it works. Like, there's just no one way or path to drive to an outcome. Um, the one of my favorite things anyone ever said to me was Malcolm Gladwell and I were talking about Malcolm Gladwell, best-selling author, blah, blah, blah. Uh uh, Malcolm Gladwell and I were talking uh about a bunch of stuff, but I had asked him how he decides what a Malcolm Gladwell project is. Like everything he does has this distinctiveness to it. And I was wondering, what is his filter that he uses to define what he does? And he said this thing that was really fascinating. He said, to the best of his ability, he tries to never to do that because and then these are exact words out of his mouth. I wrote them down. Self-conceptions are powerfully limiting. Self-conceptions are powerfully limiting. If you have too narrow a definition of who you are and what you do, then you will turn down all of the opportunities around that narrow path. And that is so true. So I have reinvented my understanding of myself many times, and I'm sure I will continue to do it. And I also want to constantly remind myself that just because I think that this is one way to do something now does not mean that it will be right tomorrow. And then the next logical thing to follow is that just because somebody else does something somehow doesn't mean that it's the right thing for me.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Well said. You know, I'm sure you've had a lot of these golden little nuggets of wisdom and things that that stick to you. Are there some other uh whether it's, you know, someone famous or not, some things that, you know, those types of lines that kind of guide maybe some of your thoughts that you bring into a lot of your discussions, some things that kind of resonate with you on maybe a daily weekly basis?

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Oh yeah. I mean, there's there's stuff that I somebody people say things to me and I just

Self-Conceptions Are Powerfully Limiting

SPEAKER_00 26:10

know instantly I will be repeating that for the next 10 to 20 years. Like I'll just I'll just keep saying that. So, what are some of those things? I mean, Ryan Reynolds said to me, to be good at something, you have to be willing to be bad. And I loved that because we often hold ourselves to this standard of we have to be good at something at the very beginning. And that is the top, that is the the telltale sign of whether or not it's right for us. But he's like, that nobody's good at the very beginning. The like the thing that divides successful people from unsuccessful people is whether you are willing to tolerate being bad long enough to get to good. That's the thing that actually matters. So um, you know, I I really love that. Uh um somebody, and I wish I could remember who this was. Somebody said to me um uh that instead of asking, um, like, is this a perfect solution to something? Is my new problem better than my old problem? And I have been repeating that for so long. Is my new problem better than my old problem? What a great way to evaluate problems. Um I uh uh yeah, I mean, I'm sure, yeah, like I I well give one more, uh one more, which is um um I I was I was having a conversation with Shark Tank's Robert Herzhivek, and he was like he he said a couple things that were really stuck out, but I'm gonna choose one, which was um he gave me this sales framework that I found incredibly useful, which was um not really more of a sales concept, which was shock the narrative. He says, look, uh whenever you go into a sales call, uh you're all excited, and the person who you're talking to is thinking, when can this be over? And how can I get this person the hell away from me? And they have a narrative in their head about exactly how this is gonna go. And if you fit inside of that narrative, then they will never pay any attention to you. So you have to do something to shock the narrative, to literally force them outside of the narrative that they have so that they look at you anew and you can redefine the space. Um the example that he gave was so fun, which was he said he had this, you know, Robert, everyone just knows him from Shark Tank, but he had actually he made his money in cybersecurity. And he said he had this young salesman who had joined the cybersecurity firm who uh was really smart and just couldn't close anything. And the manager said, like, this kid's a loser, let's get rid of him. And Robert decided to tag along on a couple of sales calls and see what was going on. And what he saw was this kid was really sharp and knew the product really well, but was not making any kind of connection, personal connection with the client. And so Robert said

Nuggets: Be Bad First, Better Problems

SPEAKER_00 29:00

to the kid, he's like, Look, next time you go into a sales call, here's what I want you to do. I want you to sit down and I want you to be quiet for a couple seconds. And then I want you to look at them and just say, Look, before we begin, I just want to tell you, uh, I really appreciate you taking this meeting with me. I'm incredibly nervous. This is actually my very first sales call. And uh he said, What's gonna happen here? Well, what's gonna happen is that they're pitching to like middle-aged guys in IT, and these guys are all gonna look at this kid and they're all gonna think, that's my son, and they're gonna have immediate sympathy for this kid. And this kid started closing, like just became a great closer. So much so that a year later, Robert went on another sales call with the kid and he still opened it up with like, this is my first sales call. Robert's like, you gotta do something else now. But he said, But it's worked so well. So it's really funny, right? But like, but the idea of shocking the narrative is so compelling and it goes way beyond sales. It applies to anything, and anything where you are facing another. Other person, and you need to get them to take a closer look at you. You have to understand that they have a narrative of how this is gonna go, and you need to shock that. So that's the kind of stuff that people just say to me all the time. And and I, you know, I will have, I mean, like I I had two separate conversations with Robert for probably a grand total of like two hours worth of talking to him. And uh, and you know, I the thing that I'll probably repeat forever and ever is the shock the narrative. And the rest of it was good, but like it didn't stick with me in that way. And that's what I look for is is what's this one interesting aha moment that gets me thinking that is is is compelling for me to share. And uh and and that is what that's what I feel that is the stuff that adds to my life. Like I'm walking around the world looking for that.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

It's amazing. It kind of reminds me there's a quote of a lady who told me this a long time ago that says, be a conduit, not a catcher's myth. You know, a lot of times you can absorb all this, whatever it is, the wisdom experience, um, you know, great work, so whatever that is that you have. But if you you need to make sure that you're sharing that and that you're not blocking that point off. And that's how I feel like with the podcast, too. When I can be able to get something from someone, I'd love to share it because I just like to be a storyteller, but I like to hear other people tell their stories and be a conduit of that. And I think that's a you know, like what you're talking about too. Those little nuggets that you can get can be super important in someone else's journey. And a lot of times, those little bite-sized information that people get, those things may stick with them in that story, that narrative, that shock, like boom,

Shock The Narrative: Sales And Trust

SPEAKER_01 31:30

okay, yeah, that's great. And they can apply that in their own business, their own life. And uh yeah, so I've always thought about that idea the conduit and catchers made has been something that I kind of roll with is my little nugget that I found years ago.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah, it's a good it's a good one. I mean, look, it just goes back to what builds trust, uh, right. And what builds trust is leading with value. So this is the reason why so many companies produce content, content that has nothing to do with sales, because if you're giving and you're sharing, then people start to see you as an authority. And you know, like I I know these guys who who run a um a growth marketing agency called Pilot House, and their number one source of leads is this media properties that they had built, a newsletter and podcast. And they're just given tips. They're just given tips on on growing your D2C channels. And uh, you know, what they said to me was like, look, we'll tell people basically exactly how we do stuff, but they're not gonna want to do that themselves. It's complicated, it takes a lot of time. And so they'll see it, they'll be like, oh, this is really smart. And then they'll think, I don't want to do this. I guess I should just hire them to do it. And like you shouldn't hold on to this information. The more in which you give, the more in which you build trust, and then people come to you.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Oh, that's great. That's well said, man. You know, it I know we're closing in on the time. I wanted to go ahead and have you, you know, give your socials, give your website where people can learn a little bit more, maybe order the book, sign up for your newsletter, check out your podcast. If you wouldn't mind, go ahead and dropping those in real quick.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, sure. So, well, look, thanks for spending the time with me with us. I uh I'll just to go back to tyranny of choice. I don't want to give you too many things. So, um, so if you want to get that newsletter, which I really strongly recommend, it is one thingbetter.email. That is where you'll find it. Plug that into a browser, one thingbetter.email. Uh, you get a lot of the kinds of things that we just talked about on this show. Also, it's a great way to get in touch with me because if you respond to any of those emails, it does go directly to my inbox. And I pledge to you, I will respond. It might take me a little bit, but I I reply to everybody. Uh, so um, so that's the number one thing. And then um, you know, you can also find me on LinkedIn. I post every single day, super engaged there, and I always love hearing from people.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Well, and I think it's great too, just to tie in on that point as well, is like the idea that you're replying to everybody. I know like that is a huge thing that people don't do on all the comments, whatever. That's your way to kind of build that relationship with your followers, those potential customers, your potential friends, whatever that is, the people you're gonna work together. I think it's important that you do that. I see that, and I see that with a lot of other folks. And I just wanted to kind of tie that in and make sure if those people are listening, if someone comments, yeah, comment back.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah, I know it's it's it is literally the easiest and simplest thing that you can do to build a fan for life. I do not understand why most people don't do it. I am I am religious about it. And I it's it's not easy. I it takes me a while. I have a backlog, and sometimes people will hear from me three months later, but I am committed to doing it and I've seen the value in it.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Well, and and I know you too also said, hey, you know, if someone has something you're gonna ask someone, be bold about it. And that's how I said, hey, Jason, come on on my podcast. Let's chat. And you were like, Yes, good, you know, so you never know. You ask those people, they may come on. And uh I've just had a great time chatting with you. I know the audience is gonna appreciate it and look forward to seeing what uh comes next with Entrepreneur Magazine, uh, your own you know projects and stuff there too. And again, man, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Oh, hey, well, thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Cool, man. You take care.