Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey, this is Joel Turner with Shot IQ, mind IQ and the Turner Model, and you're listening to the Son of a Blitch podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Son of a Blitch podcast. I'm your host, george Blitch, and I just wrapped up a phenomenal conversation with Joel Turner. You guys might have heard about him. He's the founder of Shot IQ and Mind IQ. You know, he is the inventor of the Turner model. I first heard about him on a Joe Rogan podcast where he started.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Joe was talking about how he took his online course and it made him such a more proficient hunter in the archery realm. And you know, I looked into more of it and basically, joel is he's helping you to control your mind, to perform at the highest potential in any arena in life and in the outdoor space, in the hunting world, where it's archery and long gun or even pistol related. That's where shot IQ kind of comes into play and I realized that there's probably some other things that that can apply to. And then, when I took the mind IQ course, I realized how this is something that's applicable across the board and we talked about that today and, you know, especially in the hunting world you know, of which I'm involved in the outdoor space Uh, we definitely spent some time there. There, too, we talked about how this can apply to other arenas in your life and how he's worked with people. You know major league teams, olympians, all people who are at these high pressure situations, and you know CEOs and what you can do to make sure that you're controlling your environment and being able to apply this model that he talks about to be the very best that you can be.

Speaker 2: 1:47

And I'm not going to dive into all that. I'm going to let him tell you about it. So, you guys, make sure you tune into this episode. Share with your friends. There's so much to learn from here. Make sure you check out the show notes for the links to his online course, and you know some other things that we talked about that you know. We'll point you towards that too. So, guys, I think you're really going to enjoy this one. It's educational, it's informative, it's a lot of fun. So make sure you share this with a friend. If you'd like it, leave a comment below and, you know, let me know what you think about this one. Please. If you got any questions, make sure you reach out to Joel, and we have the socials down below in the show notes. He's awaiting your call or your text or your email. So, guys, thank you Without further ado.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Here is my interview and conversation with Joel Turner from ShotIQ and MindIQ. Y'all enjoy. Hey, joel, good afternoon. How are you doing today, man? Good man, how are you Doing? Fantastic. Listen, I know we got so many wonderful things to talk about. I'm going to jump into Shot IQ, mind IQ, how you got involved with this and put together these amazing programs, how they can apply to so many different people in so many different ways. But you know, with most of my guests, I like to start and just kind of give a little bit of background information. Why don't you tell me a little bit about you know where you grew up and maybe how you got involved in kind of the outdoor lifestyle? And you know, obviously you know your career of service and how that kind of you know transitioned into what you're doing now, and so maybe we can just, you know, go ahead and we'll follow that thread as it goes and we'll dive in deep as we get there. But you know, just a little bit of intro for the listeners if you don't mind. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:20

So I grew up in a little logging town of Eatonville, washington. My dad was a logger for man 30 some years and my mom was actually the probation officer for my school district. So you didn't want to mess with Mama Turner at all. So me and my two older brothers stayed pretty much on the straight and narrow on the straight and narrow and uh. But I, you know, I kept walking by my dad's bear cub recurve in the garage and I just kept eyeballing that thing and wondering could I actually pull that thing back? And so one day my dad dad strung it up for me when I was seven years old and man, the obsession started at seven and and uh, it just led to so many amazing experiences in my life, but frustrating man it was frustrating in those early days of just you know, so much fun shooting an arrow and watching the mystical fly of the arrow, as Ted Nugent would say.

Speaker 1: 4:18

But man, so frustrating Cause it. I started shooting at seven and at eight years old I I don't know why I can't actually aim at a target without letting the string go. I mean, I would always let it go early, I'm like not again. But then I just try and try and try and not realizing what I was actually doing. I was following the natural path of the human being. Not knowing it, not knowing that, that was a very frustrating path in archery.

Speaker 1: 4:44

But you know, high school, college, I got a degree at Central Washington University and I don't necessarily use that degree but strategically I knew from an early age that public speaking is the untold skill of the human being. It's the greatest fear. Public humiliation is the greatest fear of the human being, and I knew that. And in college there was a professor, jim Huckabay, and was a phenomenal public speaker, and so I basically followed that man in college because he was in the geography department, which was, you know, cool nature, all that stuff, but it had the most speaking in it, and so that's what I really glommed on to was figuring out a skill that most people are scared to death of. So that's where I went in college. And then, right after college, I was a wildlife specialist with USDA Wildlife Services and that was just lots of fun shooting, but it wasn't much money. It wasn't enough money to live on. And so that's when I became a cop, and my mom was in law enforcement, obviously, and my oldest brother was a deputy sheriff at the time, and so it was kind of a natural calling for me. But in that as well became I understood now that instruction was my thing and I just loved instructing and I dove deep into things, things that I had problems with as far as shock control goes, things, things that I had problems with as far as shock control goes, and it just, you know, becoming a cop increased my determination to the point where, like man, I can't screw this up. I've screwed up so much in the hunting world. It was always my sounding board. But now in law enforcement, like you can't screw it up.

Speaker 1: 6:40

And then, two years into, into becoming a cop, you know you're just starting to get your feet wet, you're starting to kind of figure out what you're doing. But I knew that I wanted to be an instructor and I got laid off from the sheriff's office. I was going to be laid off from the sheriff's office because of budget issues, because I was one of the low men on the totem pole, and so I switched agencies and with that agency I'm like I want to be a firearms instructor and I want to have the opportunity to test for the SWAT team, which was fairly unheard of because I was still on probation with this agency. And they're like, yeah, we'll do that. I'm like, okay.

Speaker 1: 7:16

So two years into my law enforcement career I got on the SWAT team and was instantly thrown into the sniper team, because I don't know if nobody else wanted it or they knew I had a lot of firearms experience. But what they didn't realize is it wasn't good firearms experience. It was just I shot a lot but I wasn't that good. I was, and I especially wasn't good in high stress events, because I hadn't figured any of these things out yet. So there I am, brand new SWAT officer and thrown on the sniper crew and boy, you had to learn fast.

Speaker 1: 7:53

And so I had to dive in. I dove into why I can't control myself and why most other cops can't control themselves in high-stress shooting events, and that's where we started to figure out all these things and the skill sets and the sciences that we needed to figure out. And then Shot IQ was born and then that rolled into all kinds of instruction things and then Joe Rogan occurred. Then it was. You know, I actually retired Once Bodie won the Vegas shoot at 15 years old. That's when I knew it was time to retire and get out of law enforcement. And then Joe Rogan happened and then it's just blown up from there.

Speaker 2: 8:37

Well, I'd love to rewind a little bit because I'm curious, no-transcript. I wanted to know, like, how you got involved with really diving into that level of instruction and education. What did that look like? I know that there was a course you took where you learned about, you know, open and closed loop systems and we'll get into that. But I wanted to know, like, how did you work on the betterment of yourself in that situation? And then obviously you took that to another level of being an instructor and I was curious about those transitions, if you wouldn't mind.

Speaker 1: 9:37

Well, it was it was born of frustration because I had some control of my shot, but not necessarily in high stress, like if you put me on a target, I'm your guy, right, rifle, pistol, slingshot, whatever. I was your guy. But you put me in high stress and I was no longer your guy. And because I didn't know how to control my mind, in high stress, because I didn't know what was happening to my mind, I didn't know what I could control and what I could not control. So I was seeing this and all these other people, all the other cops that I was around. And again, two years into my law enforcement career, I became a firearms instructor. Well, as soon as I got my certification, I started teaching at the academy, because that gave me the pool of recruits to experiment on. And that's when one day I was dealing with a recruit that was literally bouncing bullets off the floor. The target was at 20 yards and he's hitting the floor at 15. So just extreme pre-ignition movements and in the firearms instruction world, it was all stop yanking the trigger. Why can was all stop yanking the trigger? Why can't you stop yanking the trigger? You know dummy round drills, all kinds of these things that were not getting to the core problem of shooting, which is your subconscious mind, will not allow you to cause your body impact as a surprise. It won't allow you to do that just out of happenstance. You have to learn how to consciously override your own central nervous system. How do you do that? We didn't know at the time. But that recruit that was bouncing bullets off the floor I was able to get him to control his shot simply through talking him through it and then having him talk his way through it, and that has evolved significantly since that time. I mean that was oh my gosh, that would have been 2003 is when that happened.

Speaker 1: 11:32

And then I started writing about it and I started asking very smart people around me about it. And there was always this one guy at the academy that we didn't see eye to eye on much and he came to me one day and he seemed to be very, very frustrated with what I was doing and he said what you're doing works, but it's not right. And he had the verbiage, he had the science, but I didn't have those things, I only had my experience. So he said you got to take my class. I said sign me up. So I took his course and that's where I learned what sciences needed to be studied and then brought into a package the science of open and closed loop control systems, visual proprioception how you actually aim neurolinguistic programming what do words mean to your conscious mind and once you package the right sciences, now we've got something that we can actually blueprint.

Speaker 1: 12:32

So when you shoot that controlled shot, you're like, oh, I know exactly how I did it. And that seems to be a missing link throughout mankind. We don't know how we do what we do and therefore we can't blueprint it. And that may be shooting, it may be pitching Major League Baseball, it may be hockey, it may be shooting a free throw. People don't know how they do what they do. And then those people that are successful, they become coaches and then they have no way to relay that information of how they did what they did to the up and coming athletes or whatever. So it's this very frustrating circle of not knowing how we do what we do, frustrating circle of not knowing how we do what we do.

Speaker 1: 13:30

So that's all we've done in ShotIQ is really figured out how we do what we do, what mental game do you have to play, and even the definition of what the mental game is because people say all the time, well, I'm working on my mental game. What does that mean? So we defined it. We defined the mental game as understanding where, when and how to direct your conscious mind into a specific task at a specific moment. How do you do that? Where do you need your conscious mind, when do you need it there and how do you put it there. So once you've got that equation now you know what values to plug into it for your particular problem and it becomes very simple. The how of the mental game equation is always speech. Speech is what moves thoughts from the limbic system of the brain to the peripheral cortex, where thinking can occur. But thinking is speech, speech is your conscious mind. So once we've figured that stuff out now we can really relay and we can get people successful much faster.

Speaker 2: 14:43

And especially when it comes to things where you know we're talking about in, like the archery sense or the you know shooting, whether you're hunting or target, you know pressure, whatever it is, it comes up a lot of times. You know buck fever, something happens where it's in front of you and you get panicked, you get anxiety and all these thoughts just rush in there, all the worries, maybe, all the fears. You're in that you know bottom of the ninth, two outs, two strikes. You're about to okay, I got to throw one more but all those thoughts can come in and can override your ability to perform.

Speaker 2: 15:10

And this is what you've been talking about, as one of those tools is being able to use speech, use thinking, and that overrides the ability for you to even have those different thoughts come in and, as you talked before in some interviews, you like you can't have those two things happening at the same time, right Like our brains, even though we think we can multitask. In this sense, when you have that focused on your thinking or your speech, that's something that you can kind of have that be in the driver lane and I'd love for you to kind of dive in a little bit on that and maybe you know you can talk about the science there too, or what it is that you find that that is so important, and what kind of talk that is, that speech, that thinking, and how you might be able to apply it in some of those scenarios we might've just spoken about.

Speaker 1: 15:52

So the phrase thoughts aren't thinking was very profound for me. My buddy, ben Mayer, in Australia, told me this and his brother just happens to be a Buddhist monk. This and his brother just happens to be a Buddhist monk, and that phrase thoughts aren't thinking is from Buddhism, and Ben explained to me how he uses it and I took that and I dissected it to. Really, thoughts are what you hear, thinking is what you say, and understanding that you can't control your thoughts. So all these thoughts that are rushing in on you, that doesn't make you inferior at all. That is what happens and you can't control thoughts. Thoughts are what you hear, but can you override them? That's where the skill comes in, right, that's where thinking comes in, because thoughts have no instruction, thoughts have no strategy, thoughts cannot solve problems. Again, thoughts are just what you hear, thinking is what you say. So when you're in those high stress events, you have to speak louder than the voice of the thoughts, right? So, and understanding, what do we say? Well, that's the mental game equation when do I need my conscious mind? So you take that problem that you're having where do I need my conscious mind? Like, let me give you an example. This is an example that I use all the time, because after the Rogan podcast, evidently I became an expert in everything mental. So I had a Olympic decathlon coach from a foreign country want to do a video chat with me. So I did a video chat with this person and I said give me your biggest problem in the decathlon. And he said okay, my biggest problem in the decathlon is with my long jumpers. He says my long jumpers as they're running down the lane, right before they put their foot on the launch board, they involuntarily put their shoulders back, which kills the momentum of the jump. I'm like, okay, who knew right? So let's plug it into the equation. I said I asked this gentleman. I said where do you want their conscious mind? He said I want it in the longest jump possible. I said no, that's not the problem. The problem is not in their legs, the problem is obviously in their shoulders. So the where of the mental game equation is in the shoulders. The when of the mental game equation when do you need that conscious control of the shoulders is right before they put their foot on the launch board. Okay, because that's when this involuntary movement is happening. How do you put it there? The how of the mental game equation is always speech. So, as they're running down the lane, right before they put their foot on the launch board, they say shoulders, they say forward, they say whatever puts their conscious mind into their shoulders and then it keeps it out of their legs, which is the jumping portion. All you're doing is fixing these micro problems within an event. So that's how you use it Understanding that thoughts aren't thinking.

Speaker 1: 18:54

The ultimate skill of the human being and I'm sure you've probably seen this on a podcast or something, or you heard it in the Mind IQ course. But you know, when you, I love asking people this what is the one skill, the one life skill that has gotten you through everything? It gets you out of bed every day, it gets you to work out, it gets you to eat right, it gets you to go through stressful events. It got you through your car wreck. It got you through, you know, an argument with your boss. It got you through everything. It gets you through everything every day. What is that one skill?

Speaker 1: 19:28

And people usually tell me the result of the skill it's discipline, it's mental toughness, it's grit, it's consistency, it's persistence, it's they give me all these things I'm like. Well, how do you do that? How do you get discipline? They give me all these things. I'm like well, how do you do that? How do you get discipline? How do you get mental toughness? How? How do we do this? Because if you don't teach somebody how, it doesn't just happen on its own right.

Speaker 1: 19:55

So what is this ultimate skill? The ultimate skill is the ability to get loud in your head with the right words at the right moment. That's the ultimate skill. And now you start to use all these problems to strengthen the ultimate skill. You start using your long jump to get loud when you're having a problem with your shoulders. You start using your archery shot. Now you stand on one foot when you shoot. Now you shoot in front of all these people because it forces you to get loud. You get reps in practicing the ultimate skill of the human being, right. So it's. You know what's the difference between an elite athlete and a not-so-elite athlete? The elite athlete is louder in their head, with the right words at the right moments. But how do you know what words and what moments? That's where open and closed loop control systems come in.

Speaker 1: 20:47

If you don't understand open and closed loop control systems, you can't possibly know the where and the when of the mental game equation. So let's say that there's a major league pitcher that's having a problem throwing a cutter right and evidently I've learned through training the Phillies pitching team that to throw a cutter you have to actually try to cut the ball in half with your index finger. I don't know anything about that. I go into these organizations not knowing what the problem is, but those folks feed me the problem and I give them the mental game of the solution. Right, because I understand open and closed loop control systems.

Speaker 1: 21:29

Open loop is a control system in your brain for movements that are smooth, fluid, fast. You're not supposed to gain feedback within that movement. It's swinging a baseball bat, it's throwing a baseball, it is shooting trap, shooting right. If you're talking about the shooting world, it's moving targets where you're going to go open loop, on the trigger. In the shooting world that causes a whole other problem. But in most sports you're supposed to keep your conscious mind out of the actual movement, out of the actual motor program. But we have a tendency to put it in at the wrong time, so we're using the wrong words at the wrong moments.

Speaker 1: 22:15

Like what is the governing body that gets the basketball in the hoop. What's the governing body? The governing body is your eyes. It calculates the trajectory, how much power you put to the ball and all those things. But if you don't put your conscious mind into that vision and you put power to the ball before you put your eyes on the rim, the trajectory can't possibly be right. It wasn't even calculated. It can't possibly be right. So when you watch a basketball game you will see when people don't look at the rim they miss way more often than they hit that. But if they look at the rim first, that's those really good shooters, right.

Speaker 1: 22:58

So open and closed loop. Open loop fast, fluid, not supposed to gain feedback within it. Closed loop is slow enough you can stop it. Slow enough you can gain feedback within it. It's the precision rifle trigger press. It's the pressure increase on a trigger. It is the takeaway on your golf swing, right On the golf swing, the takeaway. That backswing is where you gain all the feedback. But when you send it, when you do the fore swing, if you put your conscious mind into that open loop motor program, it alters the motor program. So you got to know what words and what moments to get that portion of the metal game equation. You gotta know open and closed loop.

Speaker 2: 23:49

So you, you talked about you talked about that too that there was a time you were in Texas at the King ranch and you were hunting and there was, you know, we, we talk about this in different terms, whatever, maybe the yips, or just maybe it's a it's a target panic or buck panic, or maybe in this sense, you know, we, we talk about this in different terms, whatever, maybe the yips or just maybe it's a it's a target panic or buck panic, or maybe in this sense, you know it was hog panic, but you ended up making a decision about making a controlled shot and you talked about that was one of those times where you actually kind of talked through this and took it to that other level.

Speaker 2: 24:18

If you wouldn't mind, maybe sharing that experience, and then we can kind of key in on the idea of, like, some of the things that you're talking about. Everyone has a different process, but whether you're shooting with, you know, a rifle, uh, you're clicking that safety off, you're making that decision and you're going to stick with it. And you know, maybe we can tie in visual proprioception in that too and how that you know occurs. But you know how was that moment for you and was that the first time that you kind of talked through a shot and because it seemed like it in the interview that. But I was curious when that first time was that you applied it in your life and how that made an impact moving there forward.

Speaker 1: 24:53

It was the first time that I was aware of it, cause I'd made a just a few controlled shots of my life before that time. But because I didn't know what I said and when I said it, it was a mystery, right I finally I controlled my shot, but I don't know how I did it.

Speaker 2: 25:12

so they're blueprinted right yeah, you.

Speaker 1: 25:14

Just you can't blueprint it. So then off you go and your next one's going to be a mystery as well. So that one shot in 2008, when, that know, I was missing so many shots on that hunt and I was not getting through my clicker, which was my you know, it's a mechanoreceptive trigger and I wasn't getting through it. And everybody's making fun of me. I'm like gosh, what is the problem? And not knowing any of these things that I know, now you know this is 2008. At that time I'd been a sniper for five years, right, and I'm supposed to be able to control my stuff in high stress, but then I would go in my bow hunting and completely crap the bed, right. So it was. It scared me to death in the tactical world and was just extremely frustrating in the hunting world. So this one time I'd missed so many shots on this hunt, I got pissed off and I just went to this feeder by myself. I tucked myself back in the brush. Feeder goes off. Here comes the hog. He's 50 yards out. I'm like okay, turner, this time, this time you got to do it right. Like, okay, got it. Here comes the hog, right and he turns broadside at 20 yards. I didn't say anything else, I just drew my bow back and I had the same anxiety, the same feeling of weakness, the same knowledge that I wasn't going to get through my clicker. It was another crap show. Like so many times before on this hunt, I'm like man. But this one time I had all these feelings as I drew back and I got the full draw on this hog. He's 20 yards away, has no idea that I'm there, and he's for some reason I guess maybe because I made that decision when he was 50 yards out that I'm going to do it right this time. I had all these bad feelings and I'm like I'm not doing this again. This is Texas. There's hogs all over the place. It doesn't matter whether I get this hog or not. I've got to control myself on this shot.

Speaker 1: 27:15

So I let that shot down and I gathered myself and I said I'm shooting this shot perfectly or I'm not shooting it at all. And that was the first time that I got loud in my head with the right words at the right moments, and previously I talked about this is the first time that I made a decision, but really it's the first time that I got loud enough to override all the thoughts of, oh, I don't think I'm going to get through my clicker. That has no instruction, that has no strategy, that is a thought. Thoughts can't solve problems, right? So I said to myself, before I drew my bow back, I said I'm going to shoot this shot perfectly or I'm not going to shoot it at all. I picked my bow up and I started to draw my bow back and it all started to slip away again, right, just like it always did. It all started, oh gosh, right. And I said, nope, I'm going to do this right. And I got my bow to full draw. I got my aim. And then I'm thinking I've got to pull through my clicker. It was no longer I got to get the hog, it was I got to get through my clicker. And so to do that, I had to scream inside my head. I'm like, keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling, click, boom. I shot that shot. The clicker went off. I shot the shot, I smoked the hog. I'm like, oh, that was, I finally did it. I'm like, oh, that was, I finally did it. But I never blueprinted it.

Speaker 1: 28:39

So I went years, I went to 2014. All those years, I killed a lot of critters in those years because I could at least get myself to the aim. But I still could not get myself through whatever mechanoreceptor trigger release. Whatever I was shooting at the time. I shoot lots of bows every day, I've got lots of different techniques.

Speaker 1: 29:06

But, uh, 2014, december 14th 2014, I shot a big old blacktail buck in here in washington and I did not control my shot. I smoked him, but I didn't control my shot and I'm, you know, by this time, I this is 2014 between 2009 and 2012, I was the lead firearms instructor for Washington State. I was, I was the guy. I mean, everybody had to come through me and my team for firearm destruction, every law enforcement officer in the state, and you know, I had my stuff squared away pretty good. We built an amazing program of control and we got people in control and you know we got so many thank yous of people that we saved their life. You know we say we did. They saved their own life. But they heard our voices, right, they heard the voices of the firearms instructors during their gunfight. How powerful is that? Right, it was them getting loud, but it just happened to be our voices, which was cool, right? So what a report to get back. But December 14, 2014,.

Speaker 1: 30:10

I shoot this big buck and I did not control myself again and I sat in that tree stand like what was it about that one shot in 2008? And I had done it again in 2010 on a bull elk in New Mexico. There was two shots. They were identical because I said the same things at the same moments, but I never blueprinted it until December 14th 2014. When I shot that buck, I was so frustrated. I smoked him, I mean, I hard shot him. But I sat there and it got dark. While I was in the tree stand, it was pouring rain. I just sat there. I got to figure this out. So I went back to that one shot in 2008 and the one shot in 2010. And I figured out what it was. What did I say and when did I say it. And I was able to blueprint those things, not knowing even then that the skill that I was chasing was the ability to get loud in my head with the right words at the right moments, right.

Speaker 1: 31:06

So that day I made the vow to myself I will never shoot another uncontrolled shot on a game animal, or ever. If it's a precision environment, I'm shooting with control, no matter what, and that became my mantra no matter what. I'm doing it this way, no matter what happens. 364 days later is when I got in my hostage rescue shooting. Thank God that I figured this stuff out before I actually got in an event.

Speaker 1: 31:46

What would have happened between 2003 and 2015, or that day in 2014? I know what would have happened. I would have yanked the trigger and, who knows, it may have been good, it may not have been good, but as a sniper tasked with the taking of a life to save a life, that can't even be an option, right? I mean, in bow hunting, yeah, you get some, you don't get some, but as long as you controlled everything that you could, then you've done your job. But most hunters out there and even most law enforcement officers out there and military units out there, they're not controlling everything that they can, and that is sad.

Speaker 1: 32:30

There's still gunfights where there's 40 rounds fired and nobody hits anybody. Rounds fired and nobody hits anybody. There's science behind that. The code has been cracked. So let's get together and let's figure this out together. So it's been one hell of a journey. So now I can say I mean, I know how I'm going to shoot my next bull elk 10 years from now. I know how the shot's going to go. I don't know where it's going to go, but I know that I mean when I do my job it's probably going in the middle, but it's not a mystery anymore. And that's what I'm trying to get to people. I'm trying to get you to demystify how you do what you do, be that speaking engagements, be that basketball baseball speaking engagements, be that basketball baseball, any sport shooting rifles, pistols, archery right, if you're using a firearm to save your life or the life of another, you might want this information so Well, I mean it's super valuable.

Speaker 2: 33:40

I've I've taught so many different people in as far as, like rifle hunting and you know, starting obviously on a target and there is, so I see that idea too that, like your body doesn't want to deal with an explosion, right, and how everyone's kind of flinching, and you know so many people are pulling the trigger, even with archery, right, you know, slamming that trigger and it's it's you have to like try to figure out how to talk to them. And now I feel like it's easy, I can just send them to take your course. It saves a lot of time because I don't have all the verbiage and the science to be able to download onto them. But, uh, you know, taking both the shot IQ and the mind IQ course, uh, you know, just drop the just finished the mind IQ today, you know, and seeing how that can work on many different levels, not just in the outdoor environment. But for me, I've worked with a lot of different people and try to talk to them about, you know, being surprised when the rifle goes off, and breathing and saying things, and I never knew and I couldn't really fully blueprint it I could talk about like what I would do. Or I could go and see someone and how they would sit in a blind and be like, oh okay, you're doing this technically wrong. But then there that idea of buck fever and how everyone has to have their own mental game at. You know, full acuity and knowing what to do and being able to blueprint something for success. And if you don't have that already and you haven't been trained that it, everything can go out the window. You know, even you can have all the best preparations and, like you said too, you can control what you can control, like in a hunting environment. That doesn't mean that an animal is going to jump at the last second or something's going to happen. Or the wind, you know, catches and picks up and moves the arrow. This much further. Whatever could happen, there's so many unknowns. Uh, you know there could be a bad primer or something. Uh, you know there could be a bad primer or something. Anything could. You know someone didn't. You know, hand or load it the right way it's factory load, whatever it could be, and you know your shot might not be as perfect as the last one.

Speaker 2: 35:24

So I found that there's so much benefit, uh, in the outdoor space, you know and a lot of listeners in that too. But I think the application too of you know I think Rogan mentioned it too and when, when you were on there is saying, hey, there's a lot of high stress and applications to this. And that's where I was kind of curious of that idea of when you went from you know you had the course as far as archery and then you know long rifle and then pistol, and obviously you've done a lot of training and coaching you know with people and instructing. But when did you kind of make that shift where you started to move it into, uh, outside venues, outside of the outdoor world, right, or you know, maybe in the military and you know police training kind of Avenue? When did you start to take that and maybe develop that mind IQ course and, uh, what did that look like then? And that application of you know moving out into all these different avenues of thought, application of you know moving out into all these different avenues of thought.

Speaker 1: 36:19

It was, you know, when we got on the. Joe Rogan bought my online course back in 2016. He was one of the first people to take it and he took it and then he would talk about it on his podcast. I mean, I think he talked about me and the Shot IQ program on like 11 different podcasts with different people and that led to other folks, you know, getting having me come down and then now I'm shooting bows with Joe Rogan in the backyard and then I got on the podcast and once you know that podcast goes out to so many people, that's when I started to get flooded with all this stuff Because, like I said, when you get on the Rogan podcast and Joe Rogan says, well, hey, this is applicable to damn near everything in life, and you're like, yep, yep, I like what you're saying, joe, but I don't necessarily.

Speaker 1: 37:14

At that time this is February of 23, I did not have the words, I didn't have it yet, and I'm like man, joe, I love what you're saying. Right now You're helping me out here, but I did not have the words. So I worked with some very smart people and started to figure out the application to the rest of life and that led me to the ultimate skill of the human being. And once you get down to the base problem, just like in shooting, your subconscious mind will not allow you to cause your body impact as a surprise. Once we figured out the core problem, now we've got a core solution to that.

Speaker 1: 37:55

But, just like in the MindIQ stuff, the application to this for life it's too broad. Right, it's too broad. I mean I had people I had professional bowlers calling me PGA pros, calling me NBA folks, nfl kickers. I had all these people calling me and wanting to know how to apply what we do at Shot IQ to their specific problem. Had people with anxiety issues, all kinds of like. Look, I'm not a doctor, right, I've just figured some stuff out, a practical end, and it was I was training Andrew Huberman and which was fascinating for me because he's such a smart dude, you know, neuroscientist and all this stuff and I made a statement that actually kind of pissed him off a little bit and I said look man.

Speaker 1: 38:50

I said I'm not as smart as you are. He said I'm going to stop you right there. He said I don't want to ever hear that out of your mouth again. I'm like, okay, roger, that Right he goes. You just look at things from a different lens. I look at things from a clinical lens. You look at things from a practical lens. It's not that you know how smart we are or anything like that. It's what are your experiences and how clear is your lens. Like my lens got polished.

Speaker 1: 39:20

It is extremely clear on how to apply this stuff to literally everything. It changes your approach to literally everything when you understand thoughts aren't thinking. When you understand the mental game equation, when you understand open and closed loop control systems and ultimately, you know the skill that you're chasing, the ability to get loud in your head with the right words at the right moment. So that's all you're doing in life now is figuring out the problem. What's the mental game of it? Where do I need my conscious mind? When do I need it? There, and the how is always speech right is always speech right. So it's been this journey, since I've been on this and I have these key players in my life that just say one little thing, like Ben Mayer in Australia oh yeah, turner, thoughts aren't thinking. I mean it was so funny to explain the whole mind, iq and the mental game and all this stuff. I mean we're sitting in this little house in New Zealand, it was awesome, and I explain all this stuff. I'm very proud and I care about what Ben thinks about my whole shtick here and he says, oh yeah, turner, thoughts aren't thinking. I'm like what the F did you just say to me. He's like, well, of course, thoughts aren't thinking. I'm like what, what are you talking about? So that was just. You know that, just these little things that just blow it up. And so now this practical lens that we have is very clear and it's helping a lot of people in a lot of situations, because it's literally how you do what you do. It changes coaching forever, like when I trained the Philadelphia Phillies, the pitching staff there.

Speaker 1: 41:07

I asked them because I found out that the coaches take pride in their mound visits right, this is the coach's chance to go out and fix their picture at their moment of truth. And I just asked all the coaches. I mean I'm sitting there with 40 major league all the top roster folks and 10 pitching coaches and six mental performance coaches and all these people in this little tiny room and I said who are my coaches? And these 10 dudes raised their hand. I said what's a mound visit sound like for you? And it was silence, right. And then one of them finally piped up and said well, I'd like to ask them how they're feeling. I'm like, oh great, what do they tell you? He said well, sometimes they say they're feeling good and sometimes they say they're feeling bad.

Speaker 1: 41:52

I said that is a worthless conversation. And here's the problem. I look at the pictures. That said you guys don't know how you do what you do. Can any of you explain to me right now what you say and when you say it in your pitch? One dude said that he could and he just happens to be one of the best in the world Super calm dude, but he was able to tell me what he says and when he says it. Calm dude, but he was able to tell me what he says and when he says it. But has he ever relayed that to the coach?

Speaker 1: 42:22

But this particular pitcher doesn't take very many mound visits. He doesn't need very many mound visits where others? Because they don't know what they do, how they do what they do and the coaches have never asked that question a mound visit is pretty worthless. Asked that question, a mound visit is pretty worthless.

Speaker 1: 42:42

But now, if you know how they do what they do, you know what this particular pitcher says and when they say it, and you've manipulated that because you understand open and close of control systems, now you can blueprint how you do what you do. And so the mound visit is hey, man, are you saying coil when you lift your leg? Oh, man, coach, I forgot. Okay, let's get back to the blueprint, right? So now you have this base that you can always go back to, so that you don't have good days and bad days anymore. You just do what you do, right. So and that can be said for archery, pistols, rifles, any sport, anything that you do understanding thoughts aren't thinking, the mental game, equation, the ultimate skill, the human being, all these things. It's just fascinating. It simplifies life.

Speaker 2: 43:35

Man, it's it. I love the application that you talk about in all these different avenues. I think you need to come visit the Houston Astros just you know personally, I'd appreciate that. I'll make some calls. I know a few guys over there, you know, let's, let's get you over there too. We can't just have it be the Phillies, although my wife's like no.

Speaker 2: 43:54

Phillies are good too. We. She's from that area, so, uh, we, we follow them too. So when I heard you coaching them, I was like, okay, all right, you know, we got. We got one of the teams, as long as you don't go to like the, the yankees or anything okay, okay but no, but that's um it.

Speaker 2: 44:06

It's amazing and you know you talk about too, like the idea of like when you say things and what, because you can say things and it can be in the wrong time, because if you, if you allow the, that space for the thoughts to come in and that's where I love the idea of like each one of these applications to looking at the blueprint of whatever the action that is and figuring out when to say what. And you know the idea too, like I was. Just I was really inspired yesterday, so I went out and got the, my bow and arrow in the backyard and as you and I talked, I kind of started the archery journey recently and I've something I've always been fascinated with and went into a archery country in Austin and, you know, kind of getting set up and, of course, I found out that I was left eye dominant. So, okay, now switch hands, whole new process. But it was great because I was starting at zero already and as far as like, okay, I'm going to come into this fresh. You know, didn't have any bad habits developed at the time, but I was working on things and in my backyard I've got, you know, a good backdrop, but I was.

Speaker 2: 45:06

I was worried about what if I missed the target, you know, what if I go through the fence? And just in my own head, about all the what ifs in my life. I do that because I like to figure out all the things that I can, you know, control right, what if this happens? I'll do this. What if, then? And I sat there and I was, you know, like I said freshly, uh, you know, inspired by going through the course again and and really got in there and I was talking to myself about the right time and I was remembering you, uh, chatting with Rogan about your process of when you're pulling back, and you know, I'm going to shoot the shot, no matter what, and shoot with control, and the idea of, you know, pulling back and not hitting the trigger, and all the things that I was in my head about. And when I just sat there and I went through those motions and said my own words, like, okay, here I go, I'm like I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready. Whatever it is, everyone can have their own verbal mantra and but I, I then I'm like hitting the target right where I want to and I'm like, damn, that is, I need to apply this not just in the archery world, because I started like sweating, because I was like I was worried about missing the shot. I don't want to hit it through my neighbor's fence, even though I have a backdrop. You know just all the what ifs and I realized that how much fear can be an overriding thing for so many people. And it doesn't matter what.

Speaker 2: 46:23

It is public speaking. You host all these events and get up there and talk in front of hundreds or, you know, thousands of people. I used to be a touring artist and I'd get nervous before every single time. Like sometimes I'd go and like throw up, I got so nervous and I never knew to talk to myself about that and walking myself through those stages and I couldn't tell you what it was. But something switched along the way 10, 15 years ago.

Speaker 2: 46:49

I still get a little nervous, you know just okay, especially if I'm dealing with the technical aspect of video or audio.

Speaker 2: 46:54

I don't want to mess something up, right, but even in that setup okay, george, you're going to plug this here, you're going to check this Everything's out of my control. Outside of that and the application of those two things it's seriously changed my life, joel, the last like couple months that I've, you know, been taking your course and studying and it's something that I've been able to apply it into a lot of realms. So I highly encourage other people to go check it out. And, you know, while we're on the subject here, like, where can people go and find out more as far as, uh, you know your programs, where can they sign up for this? And, you know, follow you to learn more about this journey, cause I'm sure a lot of listeners right now are ready to make that step. I'm going to put in the show notes below, but just, you know, verbally, why don't you tell us, uh, you know the best places to go ahead and follow along?

Speaker 1: 47:39

So it's uh, it's shot IQcom If you're looking for online courses in shooting and mind IQcom. If you're looking for course and online course in just about everything in life, uh, if you want to know the story of it all, it's Turnerermodelcom. And you can get both Shot IQ and Mind IQ through turnermodelcom. But, like if you ever wanted to book any speaking engagements or something, that's all through turnermodelcom and, uh, it kind of tells the story of of me and and the whole journey that we've been on at turnermodelcom. So, um, that's how you get ahold of me. You can DM me on Instagram. It's Joel Turner, actual.

Speaker 1: 48:20

And yeah, I talk with people on a very regular basis. You know, I get either thank yous or they're concerned about a certain thing and I walk them through their individual problems. But you know one thing for your listeners, even if they don't take the course or whatever, it is one of the best skills that I could ever give them and this has been an evolution. It started out this way, but it was lost somewhere in the middle and now it's become the forefront of my instruction and that is commentary skill building. So, if you're shooting an archery shot, it's speaking out loud while you shoot the shot, because when you do that, it completely cuts out all the crap. Like you would not say, okay, I'm drawing back and aiming. Okay, I got the full draw, I got my anchor, all that's good. Okay, got it, man, I hope this arrow doesn't go through my neighbor's fence. You wouldn't say that, right, because in commentary skill building it might be shooting, it might be basketball, it might be who knows right, you're talking out loud through your process and that cuts out all the crap. Now what do you say? Don't search for words, just speak like you are teaching somebody else, because that will give you the words.

Speaker 1: 49:53

Teach somebody very specifically how you do what you do, and it's fascinating for you to actually figure out what to say and when to say it. You can't go internal with it. Like when I had that kid I call him a kid, that recruit in 2003 bouncing bullets off the floor, I talked to him out loud and got him in control of his trigger. Then I had him say it out loud so that I, as the instructor, could tell exactly what is going through his conscious mind. And I was able to manipulate that because I understood open and closed-loop control systems. Well, now that's to the nth degree, because now it's I can really manipulate what you say and when you say it.

Speaker 1: 50:42

And but if you, even if you don't take the courses, understand how you do what you do, talk out loud during your skill, keep it external until the conversation becomes easy. When you know what you're going to say and when you're going to say it, then you can turn it internal. I just you know, I just did a podcast with somebody yesterday and he was saying, man, and he knows all this stuff, I work with this guy all the time. But he said, man, on critters, this year I've shot seven deer and I've shot you know eight arrows, seven deer, but I didn't control five of those shots.

Speaker 1: 51:22

And I'm like, when was the last time you did any commentary shooting? He's like, oh, I haven't done that for a while, right, so he was in this limbo land because his conversation was not yet easy. I know what I'm going to say 20 years from now. That's very powerful If you're you know whatever you're doing makes you a lot of money or whatever it is to understand how you do what you do. It's fascinating to be able to then relay that information to others that are coming up in that sport or whatever that skill is that you're looking for.

Speaker 2: 51:56

Well, and you, you talked about this too and I remember I think it was on Mark Kenyon's podcast where here's this guy who's an amazing hunter, has had so much skill, and then at some point in time some things changed and he reverted back to other ways that didn't work and he ended up having, I think he came out to you and you guys like trained, and you know, he kind of got himself back in and got reminded of the process. And that's the thing too, I think people, you find out what works and sometimes you you lose track of it or you you lose consciousness of that idea, of that process, of that blueprint, and I always think it's a really good retraining tool. I had it happen yesterday, you know. I was like shaking, like I'm just worried about the shot, anxiety, and I was like, okay, okay, what did I just learn today? Go back to the principles of what works. And then I was able to reset, but you don't.

Speaker 2: 52:49

I think it. It takes a lot of practice in the discipline to remind yourself of that and to you know, practice that, like you said, the conscious, you know thoughts and speaking and having that commentary is that we just forget sometimes what, what's happening, because we think, oh, I've done this before and if you're not conscious about it, you're not going to have this exact results. And the results are trying to be as precise as possible in whatever it is you're doing, right?

Speaker 1: 53:14

So it's not natural. It's not natural for you to control an archery shot, to control an explosion, to override your central nervous system is not natural. That's not what we're, that's not how we're built. This is a different skill that we're now really honing in on. But it's not natural for you to shoot a basketball the same way, shoot a free throw the same way every time, because your mind's like yeah, I got it, I got it, I got it, let's just do it right, let's do it. Well, there's a portion of that that you want to just do it, but there's other portions of it that you can actually gain feedback and that your mind gets bored with that. It's like let's move on.

Speaker 1: 53:56

You look at the adult learning model. The first stage is cognitive. It's the cognitive portion where you actually talk yourself through things, but it's very choppy. Then we practice with the goal of becoming automatic. That's where your mind is always pushing you towards is automaticity. I just want to do this. That's where your mind is always pushing you towards is automaticity. I just want to do this, let's get this done. If it's a high stress event, it wants to just get it over with Results. Be damned, let's just get it over with, right.

Speaker 1: 54:28

So it's not that we forget, it's that your mind is constantly pushing you past it and you're always having to come back to the cognitive stage of learning. Your mind does not like that, because that was years ago. Why are we doing this this way, right? So that's what you have to realize and be disciplined. How do you be disciplined?

Speaker 1: 54:51

You get loud with the right words at the right moments, because when you just you know you're yacking away with your friends, then you draw your bow back and you're like oh, and you yank the trigger like ooh, I forgot everything on that one.

Speaker 1: 55:05

It's not that, you know, like in Mark's case, he's a very successful hunter, but at some point he reverted to efficiency, right, and that's the moment he stopped talking. When you look back and maybe you're really good at a skill and then all of a sudden you're not that good anymore, it's usually in some type of shooting skill, because, like basketball, you don't get worse. The more you do it In shooting. The more you do it, the worse you get, because the more efficient you get. So there's always this cliff where people are really good about six months into it and then they start punching the trigger just before the pin gets on the target right and then it just snowballs into this big thing. That's when our game, let's use our shot to practice the ultimate skill of the human being the ability to get loud in your head with the right words at the right moments.

Speaker 2: 56:15

Love it. And now I'd have to make sure we mention too when you were talking about legacy and wanted to pick up that bow from your dad. You know your son, bode, has been a multiple time world champion, so I just I'd love to hear if you have anything you'd like to say about, you know, the idea of him picking this up at a young age and being able to develop into one of the world's best archers and maybe talk a little bit about that experience, and I'm sure that's got to be a proud moment for a dad, right, I'm so proud of that kid and and he you know, he won the Vegas shoe, which is the biggest indoor archer shoot in the world, as a pro at 15 to stand up there with all the best in the world and to outshoot them.

Speaker 1: 57:00

And now he regularly outshoots them at. He's 17 years old now. And but thank goodness, I was working. He was born in 07. And so I had from 03 to 07 to work on shot IQ stuff. And even in 07, I mean that was before the shot on the hog, so I wasn't even squared away myself, but I knew enough to where.

Speaker 1: 57:26

You know, bodie loved shooting a bow. I mean I had a. At two weeks old I have in a front pack I'm slinging arrows right, so he's seen thousands of arrows go down range. But at two and a half he's able to shoot balloons out of the air with his little suction cup arrows, you know. And at three I bought him his first compound and a release aid. And what did he do the first time he shot? It? Punched the crap out of the trigger, because that's what the human mind does, right. And at three years old he'd shot some .22s and stuff as well. But what are you going to tell a three-year-old that doesn't have a developed mind yet you know? Oh no, you need to use closed loop for this. No, you can't tell him any of that stuff, that's just right. So at three years old, I didn't give Bodhi an option. I gave him a tension-activated

Speaker 1: 58:16

release. One of the greatest inventions that's ever come to the archer world is a tension activated release. It's got a safety on it and if you don't pull, it doesn't go off right. So how that works is you push the safety in while you hook it on your D-loop, push the safety in, draw the bow back Once you've aimed, then you take the safety off and then you just pull, you add back tension to it and you set the release to actually fire. You know, maybe four or five pounds over your holding weight, and it just forces people's minds to separate from the aim, which is number one. And because you're doing a physical action that requires conscious thought, it breaks you away from the aim. It takes your consciousness out of the aim, puts it in the release and then it forces you to actually do a big movement. That's easy to talk yourself

Speaker 1: 59:12

through. And so for kids, I can't stand watching kids shoot, punching the trigger. It's like you don't need to go down that path. Parents, please get your kid attention activated release. Call me, I'll give you instruction. Watch the Shot IQ online

Speaker 1: 59:30

course. It will show you how to set this release up and then, once they mature and they understand how they do what they do, then you can put them into a more accurate release system. It's not the most accurate release, but it is the easiest to control because of the attributes that it has. So I don't put adults in those, because adults have enough life experience. They're just not loud enough right With the right words in the right moments. Once I give them that, there's no reason for adults to have to shoot attention-activated release, unless they obviously choose to. But if you shoot attention-activated release as an adult, you are not getting reps in the ultimate skill and you'll be stuck in that release for the rest of your life, which is not the most accurate system. So for young minds absolutely quit giving them index finger triggers and thumb buttons, because that's what dad or mom shoots. Get them attention activator

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

release. That's what I do with Bodhi at three years

Speaker 1: 1:00:30

old. By six years old you could have a hundred different releases on the table and Bodhi would run every one of them because that's how you do it. I forced him into a closed loop control system. So, and now you know he has taken this to the nth degree. He knows all the technicalities, very technical shooter, like uphill, downhill, wind, all the stuff. So he's got the full package now he's a phenomenal shot with a rifle and he just utilizes this system every single shot and then and he's been in the highest stress shoot offs that there are, them every single shot and then, and he's been in the highest stress shoot-offs that there are. I mean you don't get higher stress than what Bodie has been in and and been successful in and also had little problems within those shoot-offs. But because he has this toolbox, he knows what words and when to use them, his toolbox is very deep, right and he is not afraid to reach into that toolbox if he encounters a problem within a shot in a high stress event. So yeah, very proud of that young man.

Speaker 2: 1:01:31

Well, that kind of leads me to the next question.

Speaker 2: 1:01:33

As far as you know, the idea of legacy and what you're doing is not only just changing the ability and of success in the outdoor space, obviously, with mind, iq and developing that, this is applicable all across the board.

Speaker 2: 1:01:50

And I was curious as far as you know, is this something that you I'm sure you can see the effects of your instruction? Uh, you hear the people calling you. You know you have folks like Rogan who talk about it regularly still, and other people who say, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you hear the people calling you. You know you have folks like Rogan who talk about it regularly still and other people who say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know there's folks who are learning from Shot IQ, mind IQ, applying it and becoming better versions of themselves or realizing their potential. However, you want to maybe say that, but I was curious about the idea of like what it is that you hope to instill in others and leave behind, and how this work is something that you'd like to be remembered and how that ties into your thoughts on legacy, and is that something that you think about kind of on a day to day basis?

Speaker 1: 1:02:33

I think about it every day. I want to be as positively impactful on as many people as possible. Impactful on as many people as possible. I think you're you know, the judge of your character is how many people speak nicely about you at your funeral. And I have impacted a lot of people and I want to impact millions more, because, especially in archery you know it gets back to archery because, I mean, my life revolves around archery, because archery is the tippy top of human concentration and I get people that call me that say I think I'm going to give up shooting my bow.

Speaker 1: 1:03:14

I get this a lot and they're like, can you help me? Because they're so frustrated because archery help me, because they're so frustrated because archery is something. It's more of a lifestyle, really, and we love it. Like I'm still, at 48 years old, completely infatuated with the mystical fly of an arrow. I shoot hundreds of arrows a day. I love it. I love the challenge of it. I can't imagine not shooting my bow. Like I mean, in 2018, I got in a fight with a guy at work and I tore my pectoralis tendon the next day. I was shooting with my teeth right the next day because I'm not going to stop shooting my bow. I mean, matthew Stutzman doesn't even have any arms and he shoots his bow every day, right? So there's a way to do it, to get this mystical flight of the arrow and people call me and say, man, I think I'm going to give up shooting my bow. I'm like, why would you do that? Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. It's something that you love to do, but right now, it's just giving you this massive frustration.

Speaker 1: 1:04:17

Can you imagine how happy you will be when you gain control of your shot? Something that we are constantly seeking as human beings is getting better at a particular skill. Archery is just fairly primal for us, right? It's been with us for a long time, and so to be able to control the highest concentration level required, it makes the rest of your life much easier and it makes for much happier people, right? I mean, you see people that are in massive target panic. They're not happy, right? And then you see somebody that just crushed it, right? They're like, man, I've got control of this, or I've got control of this portion of my life, or whatever it is. It's very powerful stuff to understand how you do what you do. So that's what I want to be known for is the guy that may be not so smart, but I'm practical and I bring simple solutions to very big problems right. So that's how I want to be remembered.

Speaker 2: 1:05:26

Well, man, I just want to thank you for sharing your knowledge. Some people grab it and they hold on to things. You are amplifying this out, changing lives by the thousands, by the tens of thousands, like you said, by the millions. You're getting out there and people are using this to better themselves. I see it on a personal level and you know, whenever I'm reminded of what I need to do and I'm in the right zone, it's amazing what the results. And you know, sometimes you got to forget to relearn it again, but I love what I've learned and shot IQ, obviously fresh off mind IQ, and just I find it so valuable.

Speaker 2: 1:06:07

All the listeners, make sure you go check out the show notes below, go check out the websites we mentioned. Again, all those links will be there. I'll have a link to the Rogan interview as well. I found that fascinating and you know you can see how many lives that this can change and I I love the fact that you know you're sharing this in such profound ways. Man, I thank you so much for joining me today and discussing this. It's been a real treat and I I just appreciate you, man, thank you so much. I'll turn thinking, brother Cheers. Well, you take care of it and you have a great afternoon. We'll talk soon. All right, bro, take care Cheers soon. All right, bro, take care cheers.