Speaker 1: 0:15

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Son of a Blitch podcast. I am your host, george Blitch, and I just wrapped up a wonderful conversation with Graham Jones. For those who are not familiar, graham Jones was a game warden here in the state of Texas for over 27 years. The last few years of his job here he was actually the director of law enforcement as a colonel, overseeing all the operations and organizing those for the game wardens of Texas. He's been a part of so many other organizations Coastal Conservation Association, backcountry Hunters and Anglers. You know he's been the award recipient of the Sam Beeson Conservation Leader Award through the Texas Wildlife Association. There are so many different organizations he's helped lead over the years. We talk about that history of. You know the organizations he's been a part of in the past and you know currently the roles that he has there in the outdoor space. He also is a guide for all water guides.

Speaker 1: 1:12

He takes people out to enjoy the waterways of Texas and the rivers and the lake systems base on today that I think are important not just for Texans but people all around the country that want to really key into conservation awareness education and I think that for those of you who are listening in other states. Look for your state organizations that are involved with really bringing about awareness and education in the hunting and the fishing community, because I believe that there are so many great places for you to get tied into and really be able to see how your membership maybe not even just as far as funds, but you know cleanups you know we talked about there was a cleanup here. He's part of that. You know a couple of years ago had 22 tons of trash that they cleaned up in the waterway systems, and that's a problem that is not just here in Texas, that's everywhere. We can all do our part to leave things better behind for future generations and I think that it's imperative that you look for those organizations around you and, you know, have a good sense of belonging and see how you can go ahead and really help preserve this way of life for future generations. That's a big key in my podcasts, right as far as conservation and awareness, and I think there is very few people that can speak to it on the level of which that Graham Jones did today in our conversation, and I highly encourage you guys to go check out his website in the show notes below as far as you know all the things that he's got involved in and book a trip with him. Go out there on the water. Think about this. Who else can you sit on a boat with, and learn from and with, and have such a wonderful afternoon or you know series of afternoons than someone like Graham? I mean, what a wealth of knowledge that he is. I can't wait for my trip, and I'll be taking my family out with him soon. So, guys, go check that that out and make sure that you're following him on his socials for all the things he's got involved in. He really raises some very important issues today and I think that he's someone who is a wonderful spokesman for conservation in the state of Texas and beyond.

Speaker 1: 3:16

So, guys, without further ado, here is my podcast with Graham Jones. I hope you guys enjoy and if you do like this, please subscribe, maybe even share this episode with a friend. I think everyone who will listen to it will really find it educational, entertaining and highly enjoyable. So, guys, thank you once again for tuning into the podcast. You guys have a great day.

Speaker 1: 3:36

Take care, hey Graham, how are you doing today, man? Good, how are you Good to see you? Fantastic man, I'm glad to be having this podcast time. I'm sorry I had to postpone it last time. I had zero connection out at the ranch and kind of figured, let's go ahead and get this to where we're not gonna have any glitches and cutouts, because I'm really excited to chat with you.

Speaker 1: 3:55

So look, you know, with a lot of my guests I kind of like to start at the very beginning. Let's go ahead and give a little bit of background 101 on you know where you're born and raised and kind of how you got into your love of. You know the wildlife and you know fishing and hunting and all that Texas has to offer. And then you know we'll kind of talk about your storied career and kind of what you got going on these days with. You know your all water guides and you know we'll kind of thread that needle as we go. So if you don't mind, maybe just kind of give us a little background on you know, like I said, where you grew up and, uh, you know your introduction into the outdoors.

Speaker 2: 4:26

You bet. And also since and first of all let me just say thanks for having me and uh really been looking forward to this for a long time.

Speaker 2: 4:33

I love following you on Instagram and listening and watching sometimes your podcasts and you do a fantastic job. I love how you you dig into the issues and just so wanted to thank you for that. And then, secondly, since you are interviewing me, you said there won't be any glitches or edits, or there'll be a bunch of glitches and edits that your interview would be, but that's a, we'll get there eventually. But, um, yeah, so grew up in Houston, I could literally ride my bike to the Astrodome and I did actually on on more than one occasion. Um, and you know, I mean my very close family. My dad is a mentor of mine. He's living here in Austin, 95 years old, my mom's 87. So you know they're still supervising me on a on a daily basis.

Speaker 2: 5:18

But he was not much. He was not a hunter at all and you know Korean war combat veterans. So there was, you know, he just didn't. His father hunted, but he didn't hunt. Um, both my grandparents hunted, by the way, my, my, both my grandfathers hunted. I never met either one of them, but I have lots of pictures and and uh, and they hunted a lot. So I've heard a lot of stories. So it's, you know, it's in my genes, but, um, he fished a little bit and he would take, you know, we would do deep sea fishing trips with my dad and my brother and some friends and we would do, you know, maybe one of those every couple of years. Um, but I was, you know, I was, uh, it was not a family activity. Hunting and fishing was not a family activity. Um, you know, we did other things but my dad worked a lot and so it was just, it wasn't really in the cards.

Speaker 2: 6:08

But when I was eight years old, some neighbors moved in one house down and they moved in from Mexico Carlos, dr Carlos Vaccaro and his son Carlos Jr.

Speaker 2: 6:22

He had three sisters and I got to know Carlos and became very, very good friends with that family and I was the third child, and so you know what kind of goes on with the third child, as far as you know what you can and can't do. So one day, carlos and Dr McCarroll, I was eating lunch over there, I was nine years old, and they asked me if I wanted to go to Mexico on a dove hunt and down to Tamaulipas and San Fernando Valley in that area, and I was like there's no way I've known y'all for less than a year. There's no way my parents are going to let me go on this dove hunt with you guys to Mexico, drive to Mexico. And so nine-year-old me walks down the street, goes in the front door and I asked my parents. I said, hey, here's what's going on. Do you think would y'all be willing to think about letting me go on this dove hunt to Mexico? And within like 30 seconds they were oh yeah, of course you can go have fun, you know.

Speaker 2: 7:18

So the third child again. But but yeah, that's that really when I look back on a singular moment, but yeah, that's that really when I look back on a singular moment, that right there, and sort of the preparation for that trip. Still today, you know, dove season's coming up on fast forward. Um, you know, we went dove hunting to mexico, sometimes twice a year, every year, for the next 16 years. Um, when I was old, when we were old enough to drive ourselves, we would drive into mexico and go fishing camp at la pesca and sotelo marina, uh, on the beaches, at the passes, a couple times a year. And so you know, that's what really, if I had to nail it down, that introduction through a neighbor into hunting and fishing is really what set the fire. And I mean, I can remember, you know, driving back and kind of towards the end, when I was 13, 14, 15 years old, talking about with them, about my wanting to be a game warden. So they're inherently tied.

Speaker 2: 8:36

And then we had a group of friends in Houston Carlos, obviously, joseph Avery, barkley Ridge, obviously. Joseph A-Bear, barkley Ridge, others that we hunted, joe McCoy, we hunted. That's what we did. I mean, our spring breaks were sort of scheduled around fishing. You know we duck hunted, we dove hunted, we deer hunted, just every opportunity, and we were lucky enough. I think then and we can talk about this later then it was sort of easier. You know the access piece of it was easier, um, you know you had friends or maybe a relative, um, in some cases you could ask to go hunting somewhere and you could do it. And although that's still maybe there's an element of that, I don't think we're anywhere, you know, close to what it was in our late seventies and early eighties.

Speaker 1: 9:26

Well, even like I mean, I know that you got your first deer around your 14th you know birthday area, like you know that's, and just throw a date, like you know, that's early eighties there too, and I think since then we've had at least double our population. That was probably 15, 16 million then, I mean, and we're over that. So that alone is, I think, one hurdle. And then the idea of people who have, you know, obviously a big private land state like we have here in Texas 95, 98% kind of depends on where you look at it. But uh, the data but it's. You know, some people are a little more closed off and certain areas that used to be able to knock on the door and go in, that may be more of a challenge these days than it used to be. So I know exactly what you're talking about, coming from that era and hunting, yeah, you bet.

Speaker 2: 10:09

Yeah, I mean we would go down and hunt um this side of Angleton. We'd go down, you know, drive down the old 288, the South of Houston, and go hunting in that area. We hunted in Fulcher. We hunted out, you know, close in Katy, in all three of those places that you know that we hunted, then are all either, you know, subdivisions or business parks. Today every, all three of them are, are uh, and I don't mean to be doom and gloom, but but I mean you know it changes and evolves and so it is.

Speaker 2: 10:39

You know it is. It is very different.

Speaker 1: 10:42

Well, I remember growing up in in Houston and you know there was an era of time where I knew people had the shotguns in the back of the trucks and they would go and do some bird hunting out in Katy, which is now basically West Houston. I mean, I'm out there, I see it every day and it's. You know, those areas of access are much more. You know few and far between, and some areas and Katie, there there's nothing that used to be there 30 years ago. So you know that's a big change in the landscape and you know I want to talk about that kind of idea of, like, what we need to conserve and stuff and we'll kind of, you know, get to that too.

Speaker 1: 11:17

Uh, you know, you mentioned earlier on you, you found it at this drive and this interest at around 13, 14 years old, like you were saying. You were talking about wanting to be a game warden. Obviously, you spent a 27 year long career there. Uh, where Colonel you were, I mean, we're going to, we'll, we'll, we'll bridge that gap here in a second. But I was curious, what was it that first inspired you? Was there a? Uh, was there a particular individual that kind of got you into understanding what a game warden was, because some people might, you know, growing up you might get checked by a game warden but really understanding what they do and the power of that position, what was it that kind of gave you that you know springboard to want to go towards that? And then how did you eventually decide, and when did you decide, that you wanted to become a game warden? What did that look like in that transition?

Speaker 2: 12:09

Yeah, and I think that some of that you know. It goes back to again crossing the border with a limited doves from Mexico and although they weren't game wardens, it did. You know, I learned age nine, 10, 11, 12, that okay, there's some sort of you know oversight on you know limits and how those would apply. And and then you know, there's just a lot of talk about game wardens. You know, sitting around the campfire, around the deer camp, everyone's, like you know, talking about game wardens. Is that a game warden over there? Was that a game warden that drove by? So it's that mystery that always, I think, was really interesting to me and it was like it's such a mysterious job and person and it was almost like a, you know, a phantom. But I had, you know, back in the day in Houston I had several friends whose parents were Houston police officers or in other law enforcement activities, I mean, and there's some law enforcement that goes way, way back in my family as well. But so there is that aspect of it is sort of in the genes, like like the hunting, fishing piece. But, um, I think really it, it, it. My brother went into law enforcement. Uh, he's four years older than me. He kind of had that law enforcement drive. Uh, you know, we were, we grew up on watching some of the law enforcement old school sitcoms, you know as well. And so I think it was the combination of seeing and looking up to people in law enforcement with my love of the outdoors and trying to make that hybrid approach, you know, combining those two. It just made sense. And then I think, a conscious I mean a conscious decision and again, I love when I hear about people, you know, I'm going to go to college and I don't know what I want to be. That's great, I think. That's. I think keeping that being open to those choices and what might come down the pike, or being influenced by a professor a certain direction is fantastic.

Speaker 2: 14:03

But in eighth grade I wrote a paper which I still have, about wanting to be a game warden. So I, you know, I all through, you know, really, high school and in college I knew what I wanted to, wanted to be, and and then I got to know game wardens along the way too. I did internships in college. But, um, you know people talk about like this is my dream come true? Uh, and it was, it was a dream come true for me it still is. Uh, it was absolutely an incredible experience and to you know, to know seventh, you know in seventh, eighth grade, that this is what I want to do and then to have that dream come true. Um, lots and lots of people, um influence that you know from my brother, my sister, my parents, friends, uh, and it just I'm so thankful for it, that um you know, that they gave me the flexibility and allowed me to follow my parents allowed me to follow my dream.

Speaker 2: 15:01

I mean, we live there, you know, in old Braeswood, as I mentioned. Parents allowed me to follow my dream. I mean, we live there, you know, in old Braeswood, as I mentioned, close to the Astrodome. My dad was a lawyer and you know the fact that they were like you follow your dream. That's what's important. That means more to me than really, than anything.

Speaker 1: 15:16

Well, that's a great thing to be able to support that. And then you know what the old saying right you find what you want to do and love to do every day. You won't work, but it's. It is hard work, and especially being a game warden. And you know, I was curious about what that looked like for you as far as where all in Texas you spent. I know you spent a lot of time on the East side of Texas, but kind of walk me through whenever you went. You went to the academy in 93 and then you graduated out there. And then what does that look like as far as? Okay, now you know you're green, you're out there I mean part of the green line too, but you think you're there. And then what does it look like? Where are you going and what does the beginning of that journey look like for you in the field?

Speaker 2: 15:54

yeah, well, I mean, I graduated from the academy and when they interview you, you know they ask you would you be willing to go anywhere? And literally I would. I would go anywhere and uh, occasionally know someone will sign up to be a game warden, and then you hand them out the, they get the duty assignments and they're like, oh wait, a minute, you're sending me to El Paso. And I don't think so. And so literally we've had people resign the day of duty assignments, not very, very, very rare. I mean the far majority of these folks. Again, this is a life aspiration for them. But we've had that happen before and it was always so shocking to me because I would have gone anywhere. But yeah, I took my 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Back then we had cars and I headed over to East Texas, to Woodville, pretty deep East Texas.

Speaker 2: 16:41

I mean Tyler County, not Tyler but Tyler County, and I worked that area, that County and some vicinity counties Angelina County, jasper County, hardin County was a different district but I was in touch and contact with those guys in Hardin County and you know, worked the Natchez River, the Angelina River bottoms, sam Rayburn, dan B, you know again, and there was like there was duck hunting and deer hunting and a little bit of dove hunting. If you found doves and someone had a limit of doves, you better check for bait on the ground. I will say that. But but yeah, I mean it was very. You know, there's still dog running going on which was illegal at the time when I got there and it. It lasted a little bit longer and certainly in those eastern counties Newton County and Jasper County, more so than in Tyler County, but it was still going on While I was there in a couple of adjacent counties. Over again, morton's house was actually burned down because of the dog running issue. But yeah, so that was, you know, east Texas and I still am in contact with folks from Tyler County.

Speaker 2: 17:48

You're talking about mentors. I mean, back then we did not have Parks and Wildlife, did not have a field training officer program, so there was no formula, you know, formal training program. Once you now you stayed in contact with your captain and other game wardens worked with you and helped you and I had a mike wheat uh who was their fantastic person and we're friends to this day. He moved up to perrington uh in ogletree county, up the top of the panhandle, but um, after a couple years. But, um, fantastic, I mean he helped me, luke mcmahon, other game wardens helped me extensively, um, but there was no formalized, formal FTO program. So you know, you rode with DPS, you rode with sheriff's office deputies and they really helped socialize you into that law enforcement. Today there's a more formal process. That's a very good thing.

Speaker 2: 18:41

But yeah, I mean, it was deep East Texas and I loved every minute of it. And you look back on it and you think when did you have the most fun? And that's when you had the most fun. And it was just it'd be like October or pre-deer season. The first little northern pushes through. You get in your car and you think to yourself, where do I want to go? You know, do I want to go get on the river? Do I want to pull a boat? Do I want to go sit up on a hill and look for night hunters? And it was just that sort of freedom that I think is in very few jobs in law enforcement even today.

Speaker 1: 19:20

What do you think was the most common thing that you found as far as, like, wild game violations in that time period? Was there something because I know you're mentioning river, I know obviously you spend a lot of your time on on on rivers and lake systems now with all water guides but I was kind of curious too was this something that you found and were you kind of patrolling all over? Was or did you kind of have a specification where you were kind of doing more land-based hunting, or was it fishing or was it a combination for you? And is that something that, whenever you become a game warden, is there kind of a trajectory now that kind of people do one or the other more so, or is it all encompassing as far as what you're seeing?

Speaker 2: 20:00

Well, I think then again there was, and there still is, freedom to some degree, maybe not as much as there was. But yeah, I mean it kind of depended on the season. I mean you had the whole county and then you could go into other counties if someone needed help or there was a call or it was. You know, there was a game, maybe someone was on vacation, a game warden was sick or whatever. It was understaffed, and so you would help out, like that. But I mean really kind of dependent on the time of year. I mean you know, duck season opening weekends and we work duck hunters, deer season, we work deer hunters. Sometimes they overlapped, you know, you'd get on the water or the river or the lake and you'd be working duck hunters.

Speaker 2: 20:38

But water safety also came into effect. So but I will say something you know to sort of talk about the, I think I think like the most common violations. I mean there was a lot of you know, water safety stuff. But you know, hunting without licenses, I think was more common maybe then than it is now. There's a lot of road hunting and a lot of trespass related hunting, hunting without landowner consent, people would be dropped off. There was a lot of that that was going on hunting without landowner consent, people would be dropped off, there was a lot of that that was going on. But yeah, I think that it's like some of that still exists and there's still that diversity of the job. But with population growth, again we kind of touched on that.

Speaker 2: 21:23

We can circle back, you know, after you know, depending on the subject, but sort of population also dictates, like your duties at times, and so you know, you've got opening dove season coming up in a couple days, as we mentioned, but you've also still got water safety season.

Speaker 2: 21:42

So people are still out on the lakes and rivers and bays and you've got fishing and all this. So if you're, if you're, for example, on a coastal county, um, and it's that second split of dove season and or maybe duck season's going on, but it's still warm, I mean every it all overlaps. Um, there's not really a specific focus as far as, like a game warden, I'm going to focus just on water safety, or I'm going to focus just on water safety or I'm going to focus just on I'm talking about field game wardens just on hunting. You just there's just not the staffing to do that, so you really have to be kind of a jack of all trades and wear a bunch of different hats and be ready to transition, because you also get calls. So you could be, you know, checking deer camps on opening day of deer season and then you get a call related to a missing boater, or you get a call related to you know someone hunting off the road on the other side of the county. So you have to be pretty flexible.

Speaker 1: 22:33

And as far as, like when you were first doing that, as far as communication lines, I mean, obviously we've got cell phones. Now, during that time, you guys having, you know, high-end walkie-talkies, are you going through and communicating through your vehicle? What is that mode of communication?

Speaker 2: 22:48

When I first went to work I bought one of those cell phone bag phones with my own and remember it was like you paid like per minute and it was like a dollar or whatever a minute.

Speaker 2: 23:00

And then they rounded up to the next minute. It was crazy fees. So I was going broke, you know, paying, paying for my cell phone and then also putting gas. You know, we put it with the time when we graduated, you got $80 a month and that was for oil changes, boat oil, boat gas and vehicle gas. Well, even at a dollar a gallon or $1.25 a gallon or whatever it was, you could see how far $80 would get you. So we were all putting, you know, we were putting our own money in the gas tanks.

Speaker 2: 23:30

And I remember one time I got called into the office by my supervisor and he said hey, I need you to explain something to me. I said, yes, sir, what's that? He said, how are you getting? I mean, I want to know so we can get some help throughout the rest of the state. But how are you getting? Like 270 miles per gallon? And and I was like, well, I've been putting some money in my you know not not record. I wasn't writing it down, I was just like putting 30 bucks in the tank and I wasn't recording it. He said, well, if you're going to do that, at least record it. So you know I kind of got chewed out a little bit, but he knew we were trying to work and get the job done, so he wasn't too hard on us.

Speaker 1: 24:06

Well, you talk about that and that's a point I wanted to bring up about the idea of funding and what's coming through, because I believe as far as Texas budget, the game wardens are getting less than 1% or around that.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Maybe that's changed historically, but that was always the number that I always kind of had talked to some of my game warden friends and like the idea of you know, there's a lot of funding that comes from other outside resources and organizations and I, you know even like I'm thinking about like gear up for game wardens and as far as some of the gear that comes out, can you talk about maybe some of those challenges of you know the funding aspect and maybe you know, maybe things have changed a lot in more recent years and I'm not a hundred percent sure on that, I'm not in that, I don't. You know, I don't have a really good footing to be able to speak on that, but I was curious if you could kind of talk to that and kind of where some of that funding comes from and why it's beneficial for things like you know, gear up for game wardens, things that we can all get a part of and you know, in our state and maybe other states as well, if they have you know similar organizations.

Speaker 2: 25:06

Yeah, I mean the. The funding is an important piece of it. I do think it's certainly better than it was Um, but, with that said, it's still not you know a hundred percent where it needs to be. Um, you know the legislative requests that, uh, you know we're about to start a session here soon in January, and so Parks and Wildlife will prioritize requests to the legislature in addition to their base budget, exceptional items that they deem are important, and part of that is certainly gonna be game warden staffing and butt help with the budget. I mean, at the end of the day, you've got to be able to do the most basic job and that's, you know, patrol the state of Texas to protect our natural resources and people and water safety, and you know all that job encompasses. So it's not where it needs to be. We do need the funding pieces is a big piece.

Speaker 2: 26:06

I will say that there are organizations like Europe, like Coastal Conservation Association, that have been long supporters of Parks and Wildlife in many ways, but also including law enforcement. It would be hard to accomplish our mission without that outside support, which you know. I personally think it should all be funded through the state budget. I think that it's you know it should all be funded. You know it's important and we can get to this of why conservation and why it all matters even to non-hunters, non-anglers, non-boaters, but it's hugely important and I think with the population growth it's going to be even more important. I think conservation matters now more than it ever has before, and that's tied directly to budgetary constraints. You know, what can you do with what you have?

Speaker 2: 26:55

And the other piece of it is that I'm super proud of is that you know Parks and Wildlife not just game wardens, biologists, technicians, admin staff, you name it. They and a lot of other state agencies, I'm sure, do it too in federal ways, but I've seen it they make it work. And so you know, game wardens are going to make it work, and so you give them $80 a month for gas or you give them $350 a month for gas, they're going to make it work. And so a lot of times, the folks that control the purse strings don't pick up on that because it works. And so it's like at what level, you know, are those folks having to sacrifice or is the agency having to sacrifice to get the job done? And it just, it, just. You know it's a um, a testament to how hard and dedicated people at Texas parks and wildlife are.

Speaker 1: 27:51

Well, you mentioned, like the legislative, you know sessions coming up and different funding requests and things. It sounds like you still have your finger on the pulse and I know you're still involved with a lot of different organizations and agencies that are involved in trying to make sure that we have the best for our state and our state resources and for our population. If you could, maybe you know touch to that a little bit. You know what, because obviously I know you've worn a lot of hats and so you know there's and the bio is very long of all the different you know groups you've worked with. You've done so much with so many organizations and I was just kind of curious you know, when you left your career in 2020 and you retired from you know your 27-year career as a game warden, what kind of work aside from your guiding as far as organizations were you really felt called to be a part of, and maybe you know why those organizations are important to you. So, if you can, maybe go along that and so I'd love to thread that needle.

Speaker 2: 28:45

As far as you know conservation and the importance, so if you can kind of, you know, go through that, that I'd love to hear that, of course, and also you know I do, my day gig is I work for the 100 Club of Central Texas, which is a nonprofit organization and it supports first responders and their families, very important, near and dear to my heart. So it's allows me to be, you know, connected on a daily basis to first responders, of which game wardens are a part of. So there's that piece. But you know, really to me, the organizational aspect of it as far as conservation organizations and associations, groups, whatever, really goes back to CCA, at the time GCCA, um, before I could drive, my mom or dad or brother was dropping me off at the West Houston GCCA meeting. Um, because I was, you know, on the board. Um, I'm sure they were all like who is this kid and why is he in here and we're all drinking beer and he can't even have a beer. No, I mean, they would have like a beer during the meeting, but, um, but it's like this kid, what this kid? What's going on here? So you know, kind of that to me.

Speaker 2: 29:48

I mean, that built the foundation, and so CCA is extremely important to me, it always has been, and then ultimately I ended up somehow on the state board for a short period of time before I went to work for Texas Parks and Wildlife, yeah, but I think, you know, I think that it's so important to find, for folks to find, their sort of organizational conservation organization calling and where they feel comfortable with whether it's one or two or three or whatever it is. I mean, we've got all these roads and paths to conservation. Um, and it used to be good enough and I've talked about this before, but it used to be good enough to, you know, buy your hunting and fishing license and that that money goes to, you know, to fund conservation in various ways. And duck stamps I mean, maybe the biggest conservation success story ever was the federal duck stamp, but we could do a separate podcast on that of how many millions of acres that's protected by hunters. But, um, you know it's, it's like what is the path? Is the path cca? Is the path flats, worthy, wild turkey federation, texas wildlife association, texas foundation for conservation, backcountry hunters, anglers, or is it a couple of those? And while all of those kind of have their lane, they intermingle, they cross paths, they cross pollinate too.

Speaker 2: 31:15

And so now it's not just enough, in my opinion, for us to go buy our hunting licenses, fishing licenses, we have to get involved, if only to send in money, because money, funds, advocacy and membership numbers matter. And when the legislature or the federal government is looking at what agency or organization someone who's providing testimony represents, a lot of times they're going to look and look at that membership, look and see how much money they got in the bank, look and see if there's a PAC related, and it's just the reality. It's the reality of how a lot of times it works. And so those nonprofit dollars that support conservation, the effort of Parks and Wildlife for US Fish and Wildlife Service Huge, I cannot say how important that is. And if you look like sort of membership trends, membership numbers, not across the board but in various organizations, are slightly down right now nationally and across the state we're seeing that not huge decreases, like one to 5% maybe, and so that's interesting too.

Speaker 1: 32:32

I think now, when we need it most, we need to and I'm speaking to myself is to become more motivated in these organizations that support what we all love and hold dear what do you think it is, far as um, you know I mean, you kind of talked about it too Like you had a neighbor who took you out and I think that that's something that's. It doesn't have to just be family, right? I mean, a lot of times historically, you know, and the seat I'm sitting in, it was a family thing. I learned to hunt and fish growing up with the family because they did it and it was a way that our ancestors did it for many years before. It's like so, like that is something that was just kind of built into my blood. But I think that's.

Speaker 1: 33:16

You know, there's like um outdoor stewards of conservation foundation. They have a thing it's like the take with program, like take someone with you, like do something to kind of show people who may not otherwise have those opportunities. Uh, you know, I know, like my buddy, doug Dern, sharing the land. There's things where it's like landowners who need help. Well, there's land access seekers who they can work together and have. There's a lot of programs that I see. But I think it also is important for us individually, as people who have very strong connections and desires to see this left better for those seven generations down the line to do some other things, and I it sounds like one that you know you're talking about too is the dollar.

Speaker 1: 33:54

I think another one is, you know, being able to show someone what we appreciate as outdoors men and women, and you know, I kind of wanted to throw that through, like your, your work now with you know, as all water guides, and you're taking people out and fishing and what do you see?

Speaker 1: 34:09

Uh, you know firsthand from experiences where some of these people may be going out on a river or a lake system for the first time maybe it's the first time fishing or first time to really get a guide service to wait, they can better understand what it is they're looking for, where to cast, or you know what time of year or what you know time of day or where to go, what. What are some of those experiences that you're seeing, maybe from the first timers perspective? And what do you feel like is, uh, you know, an important thing for us to be able to continue that thread of getting new people out in the outdoors. Uh, cause, I feel like once you kind of get that, then that click of wanting to pursue this more and be more involved and being more involved in the conservational aspects. Uh, seems to be kind of an easy you know roll through. So I just wanted to have you kind of address that and what you know what that's like from your perspective of seeing that you know firsthand on on many occasions.

Speaker 2: 35:02

Yeah, I mean well, and I have seen it and, and I love that piece of it because you're living vicariously through those people on your boat and, um, you know, to have someone and alvin, uh, dito has talked about it before so, like when someone catches their first fish, it's like he's catching his first fish again and, um, I've seen people catch their first fish on lots of occasions, uh, both at parks and wildlife and now Guide for All, water Guides. But I've also, you know, I've seen the mother with the son. You know that's when someone shows up and it's like, hey, this is John's birthday present is to go fishing. I mean that's sort of a big responsibility and it's it's not necessarily about the success of numbers, but it's it's more of, you know, of understanding that the weight of that. It's like this is a gift that you're taking this person fishing, and so it's to try to make that experience as, um, you know, as positive as you can.

Speaker 2: 36:11

And there's been times where you know I'll pick up on maybe an introduction with someone over an email or a phone call and try to fit, you know, we'll do a little logistical call before the trip and and they can, you know they're saying, well, I'm going to bring my 10 year old son or my 10 year old daughter and they've never fly fish before. Well, I'm going to bring my 10 year old son or my 10 year old daughter, and they've never fly fish before. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to stick a spinning rod in that boat. Um, because you know, if they've never fished, I mean let's, do we want to do a fly fishing lesson or do we want to get out there and put our hand? You know so, there's, there's that, and then there's a time and place for both those things.

Speaker 2: 36:46

But I think that anything I can do to sort of take that pressure off the angler, it transcends into a more enjoyable time, and so it's really important. And I think, too, it opens the door. People will come out and they'll say, hey, do you mind if I mark these spots? I'm like absolutely not Mark the spots. I'm thinking about buying a boat. What do you recommend? Well, this is what I would do, based upon what you want to do, and you know so we'll go through that. There are no secrets, and I'll come out and come fishing and bring your kids. I mean, you don't have to have me, right, I'd love to take you fishing.

Speaker 2: 37:25

But the goal, my goal, is to sort of you know some folks they want a guided trip, they don't want to own a boat, they don't want to mess with all that it's. You know, the happiest day is when you buy a boat. When you sell a boat, right, right and boat acronym bust out another thousand. Okay, we're all that. But there's also people that do want to learn about sort of boat ownership, where to go, all these things, and I love those trips too.

Speaker 2: 37:52

Sometimes we'll bring a map out and we'll talk about. You know, this is why we're fishing here. This is why we're fishing on this point. You know there's a blue heron over there and that's why we're going to go. You know all these different little subtle pieces that people, without being like preachy or being you, you know, in teacher mode the entire time, because I mean I learn stuff every time I go out and I learn stuff from from the client too, lots of times. So I don't mean it's a one-way deal, but it's just being open to learning. And um, you know people ask me to, uh, george, they'll be like, well, what happens when you get, you know, the jerk client?

Speaker 2: 38:29

and to be, they'll be like well, what happens when you get the jerk client? And to be honest with you, I have never had that happen. Folks that we take fishing that have fished with me it's been. I can't think of one client that I would not want to fish with again and that's sort of a you know. I don't know if that goes back to the way that Alvin runs his business and Lanay ran the business as well, but it's pretty incredible. I mean, it's just, you know, anglers and hunters, boaters, tend to be just a really good group of people. So anytime we can introduce somebody and then they catch the bug like we caught the bug, more power to them.

Speaker 2: 39:12

And I think that you can look at hunting numbers too. I mean we've got like a million 100,000 plus minus hunters in Texas right now and you can look at our numbers and you can compare our numbers with other states, like per capita, per 100 residents and hunters in Texas right now, it's about four in a hundred have a hunting license. So you know four out of a hundred. Um, and you know we're way down texas per capita you'd thank everyone. In texas hunts we're number 35. Um, you know, new hampshire per capita has more hunters. Kansas has more hunters. Oklahoma has more not not numbers, but per capita has more hunters. Kansas has more hunters. Oklahoma has more Not numbers, but per capita. So as our population continues to grow over 30 million, right, and California's at 35 or 36 million, we're going to surpass California relatively soon. Well, they're at, you know, 0.7 per 100. You can kind of see what direction, because we used to be way up there in California, used to sell more fishing licenses than anyone. So you know, you can look at these numbers and you can kind of see what path we're on and I think that we do a pretty good job.

Speaker 2: 40:22

These conservation organizations that I listed do a really, really good job of getting the word out and bringing folks into hunting or fishing. Maybe that haven't done that, especially adults and different. You know TWA concentrates on youth and other organizations do some adult mentored hunts and BHA and et cetera. But I think we also need to continue to push and educate and figure out how it all matters to non-hunters and to non-anglers. Why are oyster reefs important to a non-angler, you know? Why is, you know, free-range wild deer important to hunters? And so you know, you look at these issues and I think we've got to do a little bit better job of flying that flag and explain and then and then, in the course of that, maybe you bring somebody into the realm of hunting or fishing.

Speaker 1: 41:21

Well, let's dive into that a little bit. What do you think are some of those things that are so important than how they affect the non-hunter residents? Um, and you know, I do want to jump into also the idea of, like, how people can get involved if they haven't, if they are non-hunters and wanting to get into that or fish, because there's a lot of programs we talked about it, you know TWA, tex Parks and Wildlife, youth Hunting. I know Steve Hall and I have had a lot of thoughts, conversations about the different things that are going on too and providing hunter safety, and I think that there's a place for that too. But I want to just kind of piggyback on what you're saying there too and and hear your perspective on why those things are important for non-hunters. And yeah, if you can kind of lead with that, that'd be great.

Speaker 2: 42:01

Sure, and you know, I think that you know, you can start with just let's just talk about the oyster example and why that matters really to everyone, non-anglers, non-fishermen, you know the population of Texas and beyond, you know oysters, the oyster reef, as we all know, and we won't, you know, get too much into the biology of it. But I mean, it protects shorelines, it protects, you know, from flooding and hurricanes, its habitat for fish, larger fish species, it's baffles for other parts and estuaries, and it all relates to clean water, the health of ecosystems, the health of water, which and some could argue, safety as far as the storms and hurricanes and storm surge goes, the storms and hurricanes and storm surge goes. But it's, you know, it's, I always say, to quote, like my friend Hal Herring, who your podcast and his podcasts are probably the podcasts I'll listen to related to conservation the most. But he, you know, he talks about this clean water matter to you, this clean air matter to you, and if the answer is yes, then conservation matters.

Speaker 2: 43:13

And that's the most you know it's the most basic, it's the most basic premise to public health, because you know we can talk about all these other programs and everything you know healthcare, education, these big, big, big issues that are so important to our society Without a clean environment, none of it, none of it matters. And so you know you look at these issues sort of on a national, international basis and then you draw them back down locally and you say, okay, what are the? You know, what are the big conservation issues? You know you take an issue like, for example, why does let's just look at and the listeners can do their own research on Formosa? I'm not going to say that you know Formosa is good or bad, but I can say that certainly you know it's the largest settlement in the history of the world filed by an individual on the Clean Water Act as far as payout was by Formosa, and you know that can be researched. But the Lavaca River is a, you know, a free-flowing river and right now you know there's a permanent process to dam and hold up a portion of that water for Formosa, for the Formosa plant, and a lot, a lot of water and which then goes into our bay systems, and so it's a complicated issue, there's a lot to it, but what you know, why on earth would we reward, you know, a company that's has the longest, I mean the largest, clean water act settlement in history? I don't know, but these are issues that I think are important and should matter to everyone. Anglers are kind of leading the charge on that, cca is leading the charge on that. Other individuals and organizations are trying to bring that up. But it should be, you know, it should be first and foremost on everyone's mind because it's important, and so it's kind of making that, crossing that into mainstream. You know day-to-day life of why that matters, because that affects the health of the bay, that affects the reefs.

Speaker 2: 45:20

That again goes back to, you know, to public safety and public health. So it's just trying to connect those dots, you know, and you can look at hunting as well and look at correlations there. You know, with and again I think that there's a lot of, you know, very heated debates going on right now regarding CWD and I won't get into that, but I think that when we look at large ranches and properties that are becoming more segmented, you know it's again goes back to what we were talking about before the podcast started is what it was, what it was like when we were hunting. And again, stuff changes, population grows, et cetera. But you know what used to be 5000 acres is now, you know, 15 ranches out 1431, and then half of those have been put into subdivisions. So it's just sort of thinking more strategically on how we can, you know, sort of curb growth in certain areas that are important.

Speaker 2: 46:26

And then it relates also to water conservation as well. I mean more straws, population growth, increased temperatures. More straws is sort of the perfect storm. Less, you know, less, maybe less rainfall, although we had a little bit today. I mean, lake Travis is about 50 feet low. It's been, it's the sort of the new norm and you look at all the development around Lake Travis. So it's maybe just being a little bit smarter about our water management too, and I think that also. I mean, does everyone have to have St Augustine grass? I have St Augustine grass in my front yard. So I'm not trying to be preachy, but I'm just thinking should we rethink some of what we're doing and try to again, try to mainstream some of these topics?

Speaker 1: 47:08

No, it's a very good point. I mean, water rights are huge. I work in the water industry for my day job. You know I'm seeing that all the time as far as how this is affecting people and more impervious areas and more runoff and more polluted waterways and the different things that you know there's. As a private landowner, there's things that I'm trying to do to be able to best utilize our water resources for our wildlife habitat and I can do my own part in my, in my private you know land sector. But you know, a lot of times and we have such a large private land ownership here in Texas but there's a lot of things that I look at as, like you know, our public systems, like our waterways, man, our lakes, our rivers, our coastal lines, and those are things that they do.

Speaker 1: 47:55

It's very important that we are all collectively thinking about that on a larger scale. Even if you're just a hunter and you don't fish like you have to understand that everything is connected here. You know it's like the whole. There's a term remember a Lakota wisdom keeper that I used to work with. He's like we're all related, everything is anything, that we are all part of this same system.

Speaker 1: 48:14

And I think, in a time where we see A lot of things you mentioned Some of the potential devastations and the you know numbers and you know the new norm of having 50 feet below I mean it's crazy there's lakes and systems, river systems that are completely dry. That I knew growing up. I mean even in Carrizo Springs, and you know where my family, kind of you know, comes from, on you know, my mom's side in that area, my grandmother when she was, you know, younger. She's swimming in these beautiful clear springs. There's none of those there anymore and just imagine what happens in one person's lifetime. Yet alone will happen if we don't make steps now. And I you know, I don't know if it's like the red alarm that's going off. Everyone's like it's the important time right now. You got to do this now or you won't have anything. But we have to protect what we have now in order for future generations to enjoy and that's the thing I mean.

Speaker 2: 49:03

You can. You know, one of my senseis is David K Lankford David K Lankford the TWA office is named in his honor. He knows so much as you know about water rights, the importance of water, and he's been keeping records on their ranch.

Speaker 2: 49:23

Generationally has kept waterfall records and well records on their property and it's certainly not what it used to be, and I think that's the other piece of this, is the, you know, is the you know, just in general sort of where these wells are at historically, where they're at now in some of these springs I mean there's, you know, yeah, I mean the Llano River, for one, the Blanco River, you know, when you go and it's just completely dry and that's the norm is pretty scary, and I know that things change and there's ups and downs in temperature. I'm not saying to that, but I just think that the difference is population. The difference is how many people are utilizing well water for their, you know, to sustain their house. Many people are utilizing well water for their, you know, to sustain their house.

Speaker 2: 50:13

Um, you know, and all the different, all the straws, because you can look back historically and look from 1950 on and look when big rain events came and where lake level was and how the time period it took for that lake to get down to a certain area. Now it's occurs much, much faster. So that just demonstrates the additional straws, the tens of thousands of additional straws that are pulling water out of our rivers, of the wells of our lakes. So I think that's the big difference in all of this is, you know, again, that strategic planning and how we're going to manage water moving into the future.

Speaker 1: 50:52

So yeah, Well, you know you, you kind of talked about that when you were, you know, talking about just like the oyster systems right there too, and you were recently, you know you're, you're part of now on the board with the TW TPW oyster advisory committee and, you know, was this when some of the things you just spoke to is that some of the things y'all are talking about within this organization right now, and are there some other things that you think are important?

Speaker 2: 51:16

to kind of bring to the forefront. Yeah, I think that oysters are a big topic right now in texas and and um you know I work with I'm proud to work with parks and wildlife and a couple fronts. One of them is the coastal resources advisory committee and one of them is the oyster advisory committee Committee, which I'm just extremely thankful to be associated with those folks. But when you look at oysters again, you look at okay, well, there's recreational harvest which is very limited. You can't sell. If you and I went oystering, certain areas couldn't be in restricted waters. It's pretty cut and dry. Certain areas can be in restricted waters it's pretty cut and dry. Not very many people go out and recreationally harvest oysters. Really, pretty much it's leases. You've got the private leases, leases that they own the lease. They don't own the water or the ground but they own the right to harvest that particular area and if you're not the leaseholder you can't harvest there. And then there's our public oyster reef systems that are given numbers and throughout the different bays systems. So the third way is oyster farming, which is fairly new to Texas and has really been around only a couple of years now. But it's growing and it's growing pretty quickly, I think there's eight or nine more in process and as far as in the process of being permitted, in addition to what's already been permitted. So I think it's, you know, not to get a little bit off topic there, but I think that, as far as what the committee is going to talk about is, you know, ways to compromise, for I don't mean compromise like values or compromise conservation, but to find ways that we can look at this sort of, again, multifaceted approach to where there's going to be a portion from leases, there's going to be a portion from public groups, there's going to be a portion from farms, oyster farming, and figuring out where all this, you know, ends up.

Speaker 2: 53:20

And looking at other states that have been doing the farming for a long time, or states that have rebounded their oyster population, that have, you know, gone to rock bottom and then made their way back up. And you look at some that have, you know, gone to rock bottom and then made their way back up. And you look at some of those you know around Chesapeake Bay and areas like that. But yeah, I mean it's the oyster reefs, as I mentioned, affect everything in the bay system. So, you know, if we have a reef that 100 years ago, you know, was eight feet tall and was the size of six football fields, and now it's the size of two football fields and it's one foot tall.

Speaker 2: 54:00

Well, we're heading the wrong way. So we've got to figure out the answer. And the commercial oyster industry is an important industry. There's industry, there's people that have been working for generations and they work hard and they're good people. Okay, but we've got to look at ways to ensure that they stay in business and we don't destroy our resources in the process. So it's that it's finding that. It's finding that ground that works for everybody but, most importantly, works for, you know, works for, works for conservation and for the and for the oyster, the mighty oyster nice.

Speaker 1: 54:36

Well, you know when you're talking about that. It kind of reminded me there was a conversation I remember tuning into a while back where you and jt van zandt were talking about the idea of, um, you know when and you touched it a little bit earlier when you're like fishing, there's a lot of people who the success in numbers, right. Some people are like, oh, if I didn't, you know, hit, get, catch my limit, it wasn't really a good day fishing, and I think that that's um a dangerous way to view that, because really, um, you know, I've gone fly fishing, uh, one time, uh, and I've've practiced before, but as far as successfully, and I caught one little trout, and it was catch and release, and I can't tell you how monumental that moment was. It was, it was one of those bucket list items and you know, since that day too, it's like I've wanted to go back and book another trip and I look forward to that. I'm I spend, I've been on a couple boats that have, uh, broken down in the middle of the ocean. So my wife and my family are like I don't know if we're should be going fishing with you, cause I kind of have some bad luck on the water. I think I'm meant to be a land man but, uh, as far as, like, I love that and just the peace, the serenity, um, just the, the challenge, the experience that comes from that.

Speaker 1: 55:48

But what I found, too, with a lot of uh, my friends that are fly fishermen, was the idea of you know, you, you may take, you know, one uh or or two of your fish, but you're not trying to limit out. There's something about, uh, you know, keeping that balance in play and not just going ahead and taking all that you can, Right, and I think that's an important thing to look at. And I was, you know, I kind of wanted you to talk about that idea of you know, really the importance of that experience, maybe over the importance of the number. Obviously it's great to to catch a fish and, and you know, cook that for your friends and family. But I think you know I wanted to have you kind of talk about the idea of like, when you're guiding what is some of those, you know the ethos of that and trying to maybe capture more of that experience than more of you know the full, cooler and what is important to you in as far as that is concerned, maybe, Sure, yeah, and a couple of things on that.

Speaker 2: 56:48

I mean, you know, tom McGuane, in one of his essays back I think in 71, you know wrote about, and I won't give you the entire synopsis, but basically drew the connection of, you know, gathering, hunting, catching something and consuming. That is inherent to sort of being a human. It's important to being here, keeps you connected, right. And so, you know, gardening does that. You know you could do that through fishing, you could do that through hunting. So I'm certainly not opposed to keeping, you know, fish, or two, or even occasionally, depending on the fish species, you know, keeping a limit of fish, um, but it's certainly not, uh, why I go fishing and it's certainly not what got me into fishing, uh, or or hunting, um. And so I, we went up to colorado a couple weeks ago and we met a couple that was there, we were overlapping, we kind of planned a couple days overlapping, um, and so keith Langford and I went fishing with another friend who was a retired game warden, jeff Gilliam Waters. We went up into the Williams Creek, up above Pagosa, and I mean in the middle of nowhere. We never saw another angler and everyone caught, you know, a couple of small brook trout on dry flies and we didn't catch a gazillion, I think. I caught two and Keith caught two and Jeff caught one or two. But you know, it was just that moment and the beauty of being in the moment and the friendship, and even though you know we were kind of hop, you know we were jumping ahead of each other, someone would fish 100 yards and then someone would jump up. So there were times where you didn't even see your, your buddy, and all of a sudden I heard around the corner. I heard like, yeah, you know. So I just put my rod down, literally, ran back and saw Keith and he's got hold on this fish, you know, and he was like, literally he said his quote was this is this is this is like the day of the year. And so in that moment with that brook trout that's like six inches long, you know, and it's just the totality of the circumstances and the beauty that sort of overcomes you.

Speaker 2: 59:06

And I've seen that time and time again. I was on Lake Decker yesterday morning and kind of some clouds were rolling in and the fish had been schooling, the black bass had been coming up a little bit but they hadn't been staying up long. They come up and then they go down like a group of 15, 20, 25 fish chasing shad, and it's so visual because you're seeing the. You'll see kind of the, the nervous water, and then you'll see a shad pop up, a couple of shad, then you'll see one fish hit and all of a sudden it's like boiling water and the? Um, josh shepherd, who was fishing with me, uh, he had, he hadn't, he hadn't seen that before. He's fished a lot, he's been around a lot, but he hadn't specifically seen black bass school, like that. He ended up catching one, you know, and so I was like that's, that's pretty cool. Um, so you know the accomplishment in the, in the moment of the day.

Speaker 2: 59:59

It's like, you know, did you, were you, did you learn something about your cast, or did you learn something about a specific fly? Or did you see, you know the blue heron, or did you see the? You know the, the, a giant alligator, gar or whatever it is. It's like just understanding and being open to that. You know, I, I joke around and I say that, um, that fly fishing is like the yoga of fishing, like the yoga of fishing, but I think in some ways it kind of is, because it's not, you know, and I don't exclusively fly fish.

Speaker 2: 1:00:41

I mean, I fly fish a lot but you know, I get out and sometimes to pot around seashore or I'll go fishing with a buddy and I'll pick up a bass rod. I'm fine with that, but I do, I do love to fly fish, and there is something different about it. I think everyone always says, well, the biggest difference is your fly lines, you know, casting the fly and regular fishing, your lures, casting your line. To me, and that's all true I think the biggest difference is when you set the hook on a fish. You are holding the line and you are physically, you know you're setting that hook with a bait cast or spinning rod. You're just, you know, pulling back on the rod, right, so you're in contact with that fish with your hand on the line.

Speaker 2: 1:01:22

That to me and you talk about the, the, the soul and the fishing, or the ethos, or however you want to put it that to me is you're connected to that fish and it's very different. And it's like sometimes you miss them or you set your rod wrong, whatever you do, and that's hey, that's part of it. Yesterday morning I missed like I don't normally fish when I'm with a client. But this was not Josh. We were friend fishing, you know Right, and so I was fishing a little bit.

Speaker 2: 1:01:50

I miss like three fish but, you know it's just part of it and you know the fish, the bass comes up and you see it all and you get all excited. I still get excited, I mean, when those fish come up on top and I see that school a hundred yards off, I get so excited I can barely talk and I'm, like everyone, put your you know race off to try to get to them, you know. So I, I mean I, I still have that love, I still have that excitement and and I want the you know, I want the clients or the friends or whoever I'm with you know, to feel that too. I think that they do. And this deal about you only fly fishing one time. I'm looking at my calendar right now get you up here and get you, get you fly fishing.

Speaker 1: 1:02:31

Um it it was. We were over on the on the Taylor river, near the Gunnison, and it was, uh, one of the most amazing experiences. Uh, my wife got one as well. Uh, we were there with with my friends, matt and his wife Elaine, and they everyone, I think got one that day and it was. You know, it was just absolutely one of the most uh, profound times on the water that I've had.

Speaker 1: 1:02:55

I've had some amazing experiences with wildlife, uh, throughout the country and my travels and from hunting or, you know, doing photography or videography, but catching that and just being there and seeing it and and it was one of those things that I was like it's a moment that will ever, forever, be ingrained in my mind, as you know, because there was a lot of challenges before that, that finally successful moment and it was kind of that aha, like, okay, I get it, I understand this. And this idea, too, where you know a couple of my friends, what do you mean? You couldn't keep it. I'm like no, when you, you know you've got a guide there. There's certain circumstances, right, if you're on your own, you can go ahead and keep one, but the goal wasn't for me to do that. I mean, I'd love to go ahead and catch the fish that you know, or eat the fish that I catch. I like being able to know where my food comes from. But there was something know that experience behind Cause.

Speaker 1: 1:03:48

If we're always in a consumptive mindset, uh, whether it's fishing or whether it's you know, wild game on land and we just take, take, take, take, take your. By you taking, you're not leaving that experience for someone else and you have to be mindful about that. I think it's an approach that is very important for our conservation, and the more people we can bring into this, uh and and have them get that experience is paramount. I think that's something that having those types of experiences really, I think you know inside our own systems, uh, is something that connects you to that will make you want to conserve that, and I think that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:04:26

You know that whole idea of bringing someone with and you know having to take these experiences. You know we've talked about you know whole idea of bringing someone with and you know having to take these experiences. You know we've talked about, you know, a minute ago too. There's youth hunting programs, there's adult hunting programs, if there's, you know, if you want to get into this or in fishing if you want to get into there's. There are state sponsored organizations, uh, you know that are all throughout here and other states too, you know, for people who are listening elsewhere, look in to see, because there are organizations that are out there that can help, you know, guide you, uh, get you into the outdoors.

Speaker 2: 1:04:55

And there's, and there's other outlets too.

Speaker 2: 1:04:57

I mean, you, you think you look at the example, look at the loco trash bash or some of the some of the cleanups that are going on, like the Colorado river cleanup that that uh well, lene, you know, ran forever and now Alvin's taken over.

Speaker 2: 1:05:11

Um, that you know there'll be a couple of hundred people that come to that and I have seen where, you know, a family will come out, like the family unit, the kids and the mom and the dad are there and they're picking up trash along the river and and it helps build that connection. And then all of a sudden, sudden, you, you sidebar with them and they're like well, do you, you know, do you have you ever fished? And then it, you know, it segues into something else and before you know it, you know, they've got a couple of kayaks and they're on the lower colorado river themselves or they go to the lana or san saba or whatever, and when, when there's water and and they're, and they fish, and, and so it's's like there's a lot of different ways to get those roads that we were talking about and those paths to get into these hunting, fishing, camping, boating, birding, hiking, whatever. There's doors. We just have to figure out sometimes where those doors are to open up, and the groups that we're talking about, that you mentioned, are doors.

Speaker 1: 1:06:14

Well, and you mentioned, too, the idea of that trash cleanup. I think it might have been a fly fishing group that you had done a speech with and you were talking about just the idea of how much cleanup. I believe in one of those there was like 22 tons of trash that was picked up in that. If you can imagine that folks like how much trash is in our waterway systems and obviously how that affects so much of of of our our amazing species that are through there, uh, and how much it is important that we pick up the trash. I mean I mentioned them before just because I'm friends with Jim Kerkaruto and, like Outdoor Students Conservation Foundation, they'll send you out these bags and he has a big initiative. It's like pick up your trophy trash and so they'll send you these bags out and you take them with you whether you're hunting, whether you're fishing, hiking, whatever it is. I think it's important for us to go ahead and clean up these environments and be the steward examples, uh, because when people see you do that, they're going to get inspired to do it. They're're going to be like, oh, what are you doing? Oh, I'm picking up trash. Well, it's not my trash, but it's someone else's trash.

Speaker 1: 1:07:21

I think that collectively, maybe that mindset is something that can hopefully expand other people around you and we need to do things to clean up our waterways. I see so much pollution and it's super important. And even just on our own private land you know, I've talked to you about, and I you know having a place in South Texas the amount of trash that comes through because people are coming through, and that's a whole nother topic. I won't get into that. But the idea of, like, when people come through, they're leaving their backpacks behind, they're leaving the trash behind water bottles, and there's so much stuff that it's like it's it's just our private land. There's so much land that's public land and waterway systems that are embedded with trash of all types, and I'm not talking about and you mentioned private land a couple of times.

Speaker 2: 1:08:07

It's like the dove hunting lease program that Parks and Wildlife does, that partners with private landowners and again nothing in Texas is accomplished without private landowners regarding conservation.

Speaker 2: 1:08:18

It's a partnership that's been going on since the inception of Parks and Wildlife Way before. That is, you know, is the way that people feel about their land and their willingness and want to protecting that property and so hugely, hugely important piece of it. But it's like some, sometimes these, you know it's like people go out, they do the dove hunt on a, on a on a public area, and you know you look around and you see all the shell, all the shotguns spelt spank casings. There's some initiatives right now that are happening with some conservation organizations where they're going out and picking these up. You know picking it up, they're having a cleanup day so that other landowners might be more open to, you know, leasing their property. I mean who wants their property trashed? Right and again, hunters generally do not do that, but, as we all know, you know some do, and so it's just the little things it's like.

Speaker 2: 1:09:11

If you do hit the land, if you do hit the Devil's River, take a trash bag with you, collect. If you see a bottle, even if it's not yours, pick it up. You know someone may see you do it, someone may not see you do it, but it's still the right thing to do. So you know that that it's like what can we do? What's in our control? Well, you know, whether the Formosa gets the permit may or may not be in our control, but picking up this trash and helping to keep the Colorado River clean, helping to keep the dove hunting areas that we can control and I think too it goes back to these grassroots efforts sometimes. Sometimes they evolve into a bigger issue and then someone sees it or hears about it and it just keeps going. We can't underestimate just the power of the individual sometimes is my point.

Speaker 1: 1:10:00

No very good point. Um, you know, before we we sign off, and I want to have a uh, a second podcast with you where we can kind of cover some other things we talked about, cause there there's so much, uh rich conversation that we can have. Um, and you know, I uh last couple of questions I had, you know, one of which was you know, when you ended up I think it was in 2017, you were named the director of law enforcement in Texas, and so then, at that point in time, you got, you know, you're pinned with your colonel badge. You are then overseeing I think it was like 550, uh something, uh Texas parks and wildlife law enforcement divisions, and I was kind of curious about what those years were like for you when you were ahead of it. What, what was like that day to day?

Speaker 1: 1:10:45

And you know and I also kind of want to maybe talk about a little bit with your you worked with a lot of different agencies, right, and I think there was an interview where you talked about the idea of law enforcement being a team sport, and I think you know that's. Those are a couple of things I'd like for you to connect on how you see fit, but I was wondering about that. What was that? What that was like for you to then be bestowed upon that honor and what those you know what that meant for you. What it was like for you on a day to day and kind of after you know a long career of being a game warden. What it was like for you on a day-to-day and kind of after you know a long career of being a game warden. What it was like to be the Colonel and be the head of things.

Speaker 2: 1:11:24

as far as you know, texas game wardens is concerned, sure and great. You know I love talking about that and the team sport aspect of it. I think and I'll answer your question, but I think that conservation is a team sport too, right, and and so you know we have, there are all these organizations and they all have there's room. You know it's like there's room for everyone is my point. And so again, back to whatever path you choose, we want you, we want you in the conservation realm, whatever it is. But back to your question. First of all, it was. You know I mentioned early on how becoming a game warden was a dream come true for me, and you know when that badge was pinned on, when my wife pinned the badge on my chest at the ceremony, um, I mean it was. I can't even use the word dream. I have to say surreal. Yeah, because it was. I mean it was. It was surreal. My daughters were there and friends were there and, um, yeah, it was a, it was a big deal. It was a big deal for me, um, and just the opportunity to work with the men and the women directly in the law enforcement division, um, the hardest working people that I have ever met in my life, and then the other, the other divisions within Parks and Wildlife. You know the other agencies and organizations, obviously, but you know I got to that position not because of myself. I got to that position because of other people and who I surrounded myself with and who helped me during my career.

Speaker 2: 1:13:01

And I don't want to read the list, but because it's so, it's so long and I don't want to accidentally leave somebody off. But I can tell you that I just learned early on, regardless of what the issue is is, and this was how I was socialized into law enforcement and, obviously, my parents and how I was raised. And I'm so far from perfect it's not even funny Deeply flawed. I make mistakes every day, but you've got to be positive. You've got to wake up in the morning and be. You're going to have bad days. We all have bad days. I have bad days. So it's not I don't mean like every single second. You got to be jumping up and down, jump roping and smiling Right, but overwhelm, overwhelmingly. You need to be positive.

Speaker 1: 1:13:55

you know on an average day.

Speaker 2: 1:13:55

you need to be positive and it's okay to think critically. And I was sort of raised to think critically. Why are we doing this? To get to there? What's going on? Ask the questions. Don't be afraid of the questions. If you ask a question, I'm going to answer it.

Speaker 2: 1:14:08

But it's not okay to be a cynic. And I have a friend who says he's a cynic but he's not a cynic and he knows who he is. I hope he's listening because he says he's not a cynic and he knows who he is. I hope he's listening because because he says he's a cynic but he's not, because he loves people so much and he's always laughing and smiling, but he always says, oh, I'm a cynic, well, no, you're not. So it's not okay to be a cynic. It's okay to be, you know, to be a critic and to think about things and have this dialogue. And critical thinking is important and when I say critic, I don't mean like nitpick somebody, I'm talking about critical thought. But yeah, I mean and that was something as Colonel that you know. Again, there were far better Colonels than I and there will be better Colonels than I, but I always tried to just be as open as I could, and you know, think through processes. We looked at a lot of processes and we worked through a lot of conflict, and I say we, not I, because it was you know senior staff and executive director. You know Carter Smith and other senior staff and folks over at you know conservation organizations Again, I lean on CCA a lot, and then other organizations at the time that we were working with law enforcement agencies. That and people you know a lot of times don't understand, especially in these rural areas. The game warden's office is at the sheriff's office. Okay, so it's a little cubicle or a little office or a little desk there. Sometimes in the larger counties you don't have that as much as you do in the rural counties, but I would venture to say probably 85, 80% of game wardens offices are at local sheriff's departments, and so, right then, you're learning real quick how important that relationship is.

Speaker 2: 1:15:57

You know I talked about using my own credit card and filling my tank of gas. When Sheriff Hennigan from Tyler County, who's passed now, heard about me doing that, he said hey, he called me on the radio at 3319. He said, you know he was one. He's the sheriff, he's the high sheriff. He said one to 3319. Yes, sir, why does the sheriff call him? I've obviously done something wrong. So he says meet me over so-and-so. So I meet him. What happened to be the location for the county uh gas, the big bulk fuel station? He gave me a key to the gas tank and he's like I don't want you putting your money, your own money, in that gas tank anymore. And so you know I'm sure that it was 1993, I mean, I'm sure now violates all kinds of whatever I don't.

Speaker 2: 1:16:43

you know that the statute's closed yeah, but the point was is that it's it's about relationships, and that's a very basic example, but it keeps going, you know, and whether you're talking about relationship with Parks and Wildlife as a whole, with the Cattle Raisers Association, or as a whole with TWA, or as a whole with another state law enforcement agency or a federal US Fish and Wildlife Service or a river authority, it's these relationships that, you know, they keep it moving and the most and a lot of times.

Speaker 2: 1:17:20

What was interesting, george, is that you know, I met and got to know folks in different divisions when I first went to work and like we would carry biologists out and do like help them, get them, you know, somewhere we do a duck count together, we do something that was kind of like you weren't really supposed to like talk to the biologists, you know it's like we're law enforcement, you know, and so that opened a lot of doors.

Speaker 2: 1:17:47

I mean, clayton wolf was the biologist in jasper when I was in tyler county and then he ultimately became the division director of the wildlife division. We were working together, side by side up in Austin, and so throughout our careers, here we are again and I think we see that in relationships and in life all the time, and so, again, that's helped me, you know, more than anything, in addition to just working with incredible people and working for absolutely incredible people. It was being the director of law enforcement at Parks and Wildlife was. I mean, it's hard to fight the emotion, as you could probably pick up on earlier, but it was a big deal to me and still is.

Speaker 1: 1:18:31

Well, you know, I thank you for all your service and all your continued, you know service and all your continued, you know expansion of these ideas and philosophies and thoughts and actions and conservation, and in throughout our state. You know, I highly encourage everyone to take a look at it. In the show notes I will have links to. You know kind of just a story of your history and who you've, you know, worked with and been a part of, and so many organizations and agencies that you still work with, and I think it's important, especially for those here in Texas that are listening, to go and look at these and, you know, become a part of these organizations, as you can, or learn about them and see what they're doing, because there's really some great ones out there. They're doing some amazing things that are really helping uh in in unseen ways, sometimes in many seen ways, uh, but I I highly encourage you guys to go check that out and I thank you for all that you've done uh for our state and for these organizations.

Speaker 1: 1:19:22

You know, along those lines too, I was kind of curious. You know what it is that you think about your own, uh, you know, professional and personal legacy. Is this something that you kind of think about as far as the, the impacts that you've had and that you continue to have and that you want to have, are those things, uh, you know, in the forefront of your thought and how you kind of address your day-to-day, whether it's, you know, your work that you've done already with Texas parks and wildlife. Uh, as far as you know being, uh, you know, a game warden for all these years and and also with all water guides and guiding people and you know, through your own guiding services and you know I'll have you, you know, leave some links and things here in a minute on that as far as where people can follow you and get involved and, you know, book a trip with you. But I was curious really about your idea of legacy. Is that something that you know, you think about and, if so, how is it that you approach that?

Speaker 2: 1:20:11

Well, let me first say that you are. You know you were thanking me for all this. First say that you are. You know you were thanking me for all this and I want to thank you because you know you are a storyteller. You know podcasts on paper, video, whatever the media is you are a storyteller and you've also you've done you've hands on, you know hands on done conservation efforts and work. But without a storyteller, without someone who is bringing these issues and bringing us to the forefront and educate you're an educator People are going to be like well, I watched this podcast and I feel dumber now than I did because I was on it. But you are, you're an educator and I want to seriously tell you how much we I mentioned my Colorado trip and we listened to several of your podcasts on the way up there and the whole family was listening to them and then they would start conservation and light a spark about something or talk about another issue or whatever it is. So just thank you for what you do, Seriously Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:21:17

As far as my legacy, I got to be honest. It's not about me. I don't. I don't really. I don't really think about my legacy. I just, you know, I think about the future and I think that I think that the legacy is going to be our kids your kids, you know, the kids of list of listeners is going to be our kids, your kids, you know, the kids of list of listeners. Um, you know, it's like again the doom and gloom stuff when we talk about population growth and the lake being low and all these negatives. And then we think about our kids and we think about, oh my gosh, they're so much smarter and they're like more engaged than we were and they're doing these things and they're bringing this to the forefront and they're talking to their friends about these, these issues. So I'm just super proud. I have hope.

Speaker 2: 1:22:03

My friend, river Horse Nagadate, which which I, which I I really want to put you guys together If you haven't already talked to River Horse, but he'll, he'll check me every once in a while and he'll bring me back in, he'll lasso and he'll like pull me back in and he'll be like Graham, you're kind of going down a little bit of a negative road on doom and gloom, conservation stuff, and so he's like you gotta show, you, gotta remind people to be hopeful and that there is hope, because if there's not, then what are we doing this for?

Speaker 2: 1:22:36

Why are we doing this if there's no hope? And so there, I think that all you know again, it's not about me there's no legacy other than having hope in this next generation and knowing that we're not done yet. I don't mean like we're hanging it up you know, you're younger than me, but still but we're not hanging up, we're not done yet, but, um, but just being hopeful of the future and the future in conservation, and and knowing that, um, you know, there there's a whole nother generation that's, that's coming and it cares and it's going to be so engaged it's going to make us look like, you know, we didn't know what we were doing.

Speaker 1: 1:23:18

Well, I mean, well said man. I think that that approaches this idea too of, like our, our, our roles then as we get, you know, older, as you have these experience, to be able to mentor people. And I think that is a very, very important thing that if you have. There was a lady I met many, many years ago, um, who talked about this idea of being a conduit, not a catcher's mitt. If you have a wonderful things that you're learning, you don't just catch it and hold on to it yourself. You have to be a conduit, you have to be able to explode that out to other people and share that.

Speaker 1: 1:23:50

And I think, personally, that's kind of where I feel like I'm in my hunting world now. It's like I would rather see a new hunter, whether it's a child, whether it's an adult, be able to experience that, whatever that is, that first day in the field, that first time of seeing that deer, the first time of harvesting something and cooking your own meals for your friends and family, whatever that is. It's so much more important to me than having my own personal experience and filling a freezer While I. It's so much more important to me than having my own personal experience and, you know, filling a freezer. While I love to do that Don't get me wrong I love to eat wild game.

Speaker 1: 1:24:22

We have, you know, mutual friends like Jesse, who have amazing you know cookbooks that you can follow along the way, and it's, it's a great journey. But being able to help bring up that next generation and to keep that hope alive in that string of, you know, amazing experiences going is very important. So I echo that for anyone who would love to book a trip with you and be able to experience, you know, whether it's through your your own, you know Graham Jones, you know you know out adventures and you know I'll have links down below for that or through all water guides, what is the best way for them to follow you, and also your socials too, for people to kind of see what you're involved in and what it is that you're helping to put out there in the world. Where are some places people can follow you in this journey?

Speaker 2: 1:25:07

Yeah, so if you, uh, if you do want to want to get out there and do a little fly fishing, or, or, or, you know fish, however you want to, you can book a trip through, uh, all water guides. And, uh, you know, social media, instagram, big presence on instagram, alvin does a fantastic job with that and uh, I'm graham l jones on instagram too, so you can, you can get on there and follow me and as well. And, um, um, you know about 90 related, but there might be some obscure post that gets on there from time to time. But I enjoy social media. You know everyone's kind of anti-social media, but I enjoy it.

Speaker 2: 1:25:46

I think it's a good way to connect with people too, and it's a good way to stay informed, I think, too, on issues relating to conservation. So, you know, I think if we use it for the right purposes, it's gotta and also, I mean it's it's a great way for us to, like you know, stay connected as well. I mean we it's. You know I get go to your page to go to your latest podcast is the easiest way for me to do it. But, um, but yeah, I mean book a trip, all water guides, but I'd love for you to get on there and look me up as well. And we can, we can, we can share, share things on social media, for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:26:20

That's great. And then what is your own personal website?

Speaker 2: 1:26:23

Uh, it's grahamjonescom, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:26:26

Cool. Well, I'll have all the links below for everyone to check out. Um, and you know all the organizations that we talked about today. We want to highlight all those Definitely everyone. Please look at the show notes, check out these links, go to them, see how you can get involved and how we can continue this goal of great conservation and hope alive for future generations in Texas and the whole country. Graham, thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to having you back on again and I look forward to getting on the water with you. Man, let's go do some fly fishing together, huh.

Speaker 2: 1:26:56

Hey George, I appreciate it. Good talk to you, really enjoyed it and I can't believe an hour already went by. But, like I said, I'm at your service, let's go fishing. And just again, thanks for everything you do.

Speaker 1: 1:27:07

Thank you as well, sir. We'll be in touch soon. You have a good afternoon See you, we'll see you next time.