Speaker 1: 0:15

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Son of a Blitch podcast. I'm your host, George Blitch, and today I got to sit down and have a wonderful conversation with Keith O'Brien, who is the author of this book Charlie Hustle the Rise and Fall of Pete Rose and the Last Glory Days of Baseball. This is an exceptional read, really talking about Pete Rose's life in a way that's never been put out before. Obviously, there's some books that Pete Rose has been a part of. I think that he's had some know, had some editorial controls Not like this.

Speaker 1: 0:47

This is a journalistic fastball right down the middle. It's going to tell you everything about Pete, about how he grew up, how you know, and the metrics. In the day and age of analysis and baseball these days, he would never even be playing in the major leagues, but what did he have? He had connections and he had hustle, he had determination, he had things that were really kind of immeasurable in comparison. And now, where you want to see a hit count, what's your percentage on base? What is it that you're good for? Here's somebody that came in, was a very polarizing character in baseball, ended up being the all-time hit leader with 4,256 hits, and really it was probably one of the first uh players that you know, we saw could have been a hall of fame player on his numbers but has been denied the ability to appear on the ballot. And we talk about that. We, you know, we talk really about the history of Keith uh and his journalism and his books. I mean he's had four best-selling books.

Speaker 1: 1:47

I definitely strongly encourage you guys to all check out the description below, to look at the links and really get to see more of Keith's writing, because it is phenomenal and this book is second to none. I really, really want you guys to go check out a copy. If you love baseball, if you love the story of a Greek tragedy or an American tragedy, in this case, this is the rise and the fall of somebody who has gotten to the pinnacle, at the top of the top, and has, by his own actions and untruths and way of life, has fallen all the way down to the very valley of the mountains that he was on top of at one point in time. And so if you guys don't, you know, if you don't know much about the history, I strongly suggest you go check out Keith's page. There's a lot of different reviews and things there that I think you can kind of give you a good picture of this story, uh, kind of give you some cliff notes, virgin and then you can go ahead and purchase the book or go ahead and download the audio book, which is?

Speaker 1: 2:42

I read it and listened to it. Both were very entertaining. I really enjoy the audio book for being able to, you know, just listen as I'm driving around. And then also we're going to be giving away three copies of Charlie Hustle. I've talked to his publicist, so those are gonna be out there. Details on that and how you can enter that giveaway will be forthcoming very soon, but without further ado I want to jump into this podcast with Keith O'Brien. Thank you, keith, again for joining me and sharing your talents with the world with these amazing books, and especially Charlie Hustle, the Rise and Fall of Pete Rose and the Last Glory Days of Baseball Guys. Enjoy the podcast and thank you so much for tuning in. Take care, hey, keith, how you doing today, man.

Speaker 2: 3:25

I'm great, George. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Oh well, I'm super stoked that you're here. Listen, I know we're going to be talking about a lot about your book, Charlie Hustle right here, the Rise and Fall of Pete Rose and the Last Glory Days of Baseball. This is a phenomenal book, already a bestseller, and I figured, before we kind of jump into that and talking about some of your other books that you've done too, maybe if we can kind of give listeners a little bit of 101, maybe talk about where you grew up and maybe how you kind of gravitated getting into the writing and journalism world.

Speaker 2: 3:57

Well, so I'm from Cincinnati, originally Born and raised in Cincinnati my parents still live there today and you know when I think about writing and when I when I started to personally gravitate to it. For me it probably doesn't happen to college, but you know, my parents of course kept all my notebooks and such from elementary school and and when we were going through those a few years ago, you know I had this notebook in second grade where I was writing stories and of course I had forgotten about that completely. But you know, even then, in second grade, I was writing these little stories and so clearly it was something that was in me from an early age, even though I didn't personally identify it until I was in college.

Speaker 1: 4:49

So were there some people who were kind of a mentor in that capacity? Was that something that you were encouraged to write a lot? Was there somebody kind of lit that spark, or was that something you kind of just found on your own and that was a joy that you had?

Speaker 2: 5:00

Well, I always loved history and stories of history in particular. Well, I always loved history and stories of history in the library and loving digging into old books about the topic I was writing about. Again, I was 14 or 15 years old at the time. I couldn't identify what my interest really was, but I knew that I liked it. Certainly at college there were plenty of professors who kindled that in me. But even when I graduated from high school or in college I didn't know what I wanted to do. I became a history major at college because I knew I liked that, but I didn't know what I was going to do with that degree. I graduated from college with a history degree. I taught English in Japan for a year. I'm floating around and it's only after I returned from Japan that I began to write for local newspapers on a freelance basis. I enjoyed the idea that somebody was going to pay me $300 to go tell somebody else's story. That seemed like a gift. It seemed like free money and an excuse to ask questions that I had no business asking.

Speaker 1: 6:25

And that's really where it started, frankly, Well, you know I definitely want to give some time talking about your other books, but I'm going to go ahead and just move that chapter down the road a little bit. I want to really jump into what it was that initially gravitated you to wanting to write a book about Pete Rose, because obviously you're from Cincinnati. So I mean, you know you can't help but live there and not have, you know, some of that Pete Rose in your life. And you know, I'm sure, that you, being a fan of baseball as you are, that was something too that was very gravitating in a sense of just who he is and that polarization of his character.

Speaker 1: 6:59

But when did you first decide that, hey, I want to tackle a book on him? And when did you first decide that, hey, I want to tackle a book on him? And what did that look like? Did you have something in mind when you made that decision? Or you know, however, that came to be that you were like, I want to write it and I want to do it like this. What was that structure looking like for you in your mind when that came to you?

Speaker 2: 7:17

So obviously there's been a lot written about Pete Rose over the years, not just in magazines and newspapers but, of course, books. And so the first thing you have to think about when you're tackling a subject like that, a subject that's been written about many times, is how do I further the story? If I can't further the story, if I'm just going to go over well-trodden territory, then really what's the point? And so you know, pete Rose has been an idea that has existed for me on an idea list for a number of years, but the question was how could I further the story? And for me that was about access. I wanted to get access to Pete Rose. I wanted to get access to people in his inner circle. I wanted to tell this story from the inside.

Speaker 2: 8:09

I feel like all too often we have looked at Pete Rose's story through the prism of baseball. And, to be clear, you know, in my book Charlie Hustle there's a lot of baseball, but what's more interesting to me is the story of a man. I wanted to look at this through the prism of Pete being a man, an ordinary man, frankly, from the west side of Cincinnati, an ordinary working class part of town where he was an ordinary athlete as a kid never the best player on his own teams, athlete as a kid never the best player on his own teams, but of course, you know does make the major leagues, does scrape and claw his way to the mountaintop and then, when he gets there to the mountaintop, loses everything through his own decisions, his own choices, his own addictions. That, to me, is just a compelling human tale, regardless of what kind of profession the person had, and so that was the story I wanted to tell.

Speaker 2: 9:11

I did believe that if I got access to Rose and his inner circle people who knew him best that I could tell it in a human way, that we had never read about it before. And so that was my goal, that was my process. That's how I thought about this story from the start, and I really did begin to think that this was far more than a baseball story. This really is a Greek tragedy. It has all the elements of a Greek tragedy and it just happened to play out in and around an American baseball field. And when I got access to Rose which I did and got access to his inner circle which I did I knew from that moment that I had something far bigger here than any Pete Rose story that had been written before and far bigger than just a baseball story.

Speaker 1: 10:05

Well, and you talk about that and I think you said it was like 28 or 29 hours of like live interviews. You did a lot with Pete and like he was texting you like are you ready? Like he was jazzed up about getting together and putting this stuff out, and then you know, you go out to Vegas where he lives and you end up doing some interviewing. I think you went, you talked about going on on the road a little bit when he did some of the memorabilia stuff and there was a point where that just ceased, like the conversation stopped, and I was very curious was there something that you had brought to the table and discussion that felt maybe off limits to him? Or was there something that maybe you know you were broaching a subject because you know we can dive into it a little bit too. I think it's important to to because you talk about it in the book.

Speaker 1: 10:48

Um, you know, there's definitely some things that you know the idea of, like when he dated a underage girl or at least at the time it was, it's, it's in. People aren't sure exactly how old she was, but at least you know 16, maybe 15 at the time, and he's almost double her age and a married man. There's a lot of things that go on there that I thought maybe if that subject was you know brought up that maybe he'd be hesitant to you know talk about it. But I was curious. What was it that you know left, that you know departure, when y'all are working together on this book at that time?

Speaker 2: 11:21

So you know, one thing that makes this book unique, aside from the things I already mentioned, is that I'm not here to make a case for P Rose. I'm not here to make a case against P Rose, and I think, if you look at what's been written about P before the books, or to tell you he's the worst, and what I was looking to do was tell the full story.

Speaker 2: 11:47

There is. There is a black version of Pete Rose, there is a white version of Pete Rose, and there's a lot of gray, and that's what I wanted to get into was the gray and and write this story through granular reporting. Let people come to their own conclusions, and so you know, with that in mind, you know I wanted to talk to Pete about everything and we did. You know, I'm going to talk to him about those early days on the west side of Cincinnati when, by rights, he probably never should have made the major leagues. It is a true underdog story. We're going to talk about those glory days of baseball and when you look back at Pete's story you realize you cannot write the story of baseball, forget about the history. You can't write about the story of baseball in the 20th century without Pete Rose. So we're going to go back onto the field, you know, in some of those great iconic baseball moments of the 20th century, moments that Pete is squarely in the middle of. And then, yeah, we got to talk about the hard stuff too, and you know. So we were talking about all of those things and, to Pete's credit, he did talk to me about things that he has never spoken about before. But I was pushing him and I was pushing him to really color outside the lines of the story he had previously told us and pushing him to go places he hadn't gone before.

Speaker 2: 13:11

And, you know, while we didn't have a contentious conversation we didn't have an argument or anything like that it was clear that, you know, I was pushing him to talk about things that he was uncomfortable discussing. I was pushing him to talk about things that he was uncomfortable discussing and at one point in one of our last lengthy interviews, you know, he did push back a little bit and he's told me you know we're talking he said about the dark days of my life now, and he wanted me to know that he'd had a lot sunnier days than dark. And I told him that I knew that. You know that we've talked a lot about sunny days, but we had to talk about the darkness and my whole pitch here not only with Pete but with his friends, the people who ultimately introduced me to him and got me access to him, was that this was a time for reckoning. You know, there's that sports cliche that you know so-and-so is day-to-day with a shoulder injury or day-to-day with a strained quad. Well, the reality is man. We're all day-to-day, all of us.

Speaker 1: 14:17

Yep.

Speaker 2: 14:19

You know. But when you're in your 80s, as Pete Rose is, and as are the people who were his contemporaries, that notion of being day-to-day is especially present, and so this, to me, was a time for reckoning. I was pushing Pete to reckon and I think, ultimately, george, I pushed him as far as as he was willing to go.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Well, and I think, with you know, when I think about Pete Rose and who he is like, he loves to control the story, the narrative.

Speaker 1: 14:49

I think in another interview you talked about how kind of like he created.

Speaker 1: 14:53

He's like a son and there's things that like people in orbit around him and it's there is a very, you know, very, self-important, you know feeling that he comes across in a lot of interviews and a lot of different things and he's, you know, there's this bigger than life.

Speaker 1: 15:05

You know persona and I feel like, um, you know people when they get around him it seems like he's somebody who has always given them attention, made them feel special, and I think it it there's a lot of people around there and you kind of shape that in in your story, in your book there, about how a lot of people wanted to have a piece of Pete Rose in that sense too. And you know I I wondered about that when y'all were talking about you know if, all of a sudden, if there's a click in his mind like he can't control this narrative, or you know, now someone else is in the driver's seat, because all the books previous to this have always had some kind of affiliation where he's kind of guiding it, it seems is that kind of the case that you you've seen before this, because it this feels like a whole different book in that sense, because it's really a 360 view of him and it's not him pushing that ball forward.

Speaker 2: 15:57

Well, right, it should be clear. You know, pete rose had never spoken before, uh, to an author for a book unless he had some kind of editorial control and unless he was being paid for it. And I want to be very, very transparent here. He did not have editorial control over this book and he was not being paid. This was going to be a work of history, a work of journalism from the start, and he knew that and and and. So you know, absolutely, I think you know, as we got into some of the more difficult topics, I think it made him uncomfortable, you know to, to know that he did not have control. You know, in fairness to him, we all want control over our story.

Speaker 1: 16:43

We all want.

Speaker 2: 16:45

We all all of us, whether we're famous or not, like to tell the best version of the story that reflects well on us. I think that's human nature. But Pete is particularly good at this. Yes, you know, he actually has, has made a career, has made a career. He's made a lifetime out of rebranding moments to reflect best upon him. He did it throughout the entirety of his baseball career. I think in some ways he's still doing it today.

Speaker 2: 17:18

This is, again, not a trait that is unique to Pete Rose. Again, not a trait that is unique to Pete Rose. Many politicians have this skill as well. Pete Rose absolutely has it, and while he would not use the term rebrand you know that's not something he would say it is something he does many times over the course of his life. He rebrands something, spins it in his direction, and I did you know.

Speaker 2: 17:48

That analogy you mentioned, you know, about Pete being a sun in a universe, is something I identified early on, and it was something I identified really because I did get that access to him. You know, he is like a sun in a universe that he almost created out of his own hand, and in that universe, where Pete is this sun, there are countless planets orbiting him. Some of them, you know, are still close to him and they need his light and warmth and attention. They want it, they live off of it. And others are planets that are cold and distant, you know that are no longer, you know, in need of that light or can no longer have it, even if they wanted it.

Speaker 2: 18:38

And you know whether I want to be or not, I am now in this universe, I am one of those planets and I will say it's a very, a very strange place to be. It's a place where chain reactions happen all the time, you know, especially when someone like me is calling people and asking questions and digging up old stories and all the reporting I've done now 30 years, really, of a journalism career. I've never reported a story like this before, where you know one call to a certain person could set off a chain of events with multiple others and phones are ringing all across America because of a story that is broken or a question that has been asked or a new revelation that has been made. The reality is, whether you like Pete Rose or not, whether you cheer for Pete Rose or not, he is a controversial, compelling, polarizing American icon and the universe that he lives in is a very, very strange one.

Speaker 1: 19:46

It definitely seems it and you know you talked about I think it was great for me, cause I never really understood a lot of his backstory with his like father taking him out to the gambling track Right, I think it was the horse races or the dog races or maybe both. But there's a sense where you get you're like, oh, he was really shown this and experienced this, you know gambling lifestyle at a very young age, and it was his dad was, you know, teaching him. You know it's. It's almost like it's like the Ricky Bobby, right, your first year last, like you have to win, like there is like no excuses, you're giving everything you can.

Speaker 1: 20:25

I mean, obviously his hustle was undeniable. There was not another player who came through like that. You know a man gets walked and he's sprinting to first base. Who does that? You know he does that, and it was something that some people I mean, I think, even like you, you talked about it too like the idea of, uh, the name charlie hustle. It wasn't a uh, it was. It wasn't necessarily a kind thing at first, didn't it come from Mickey Mantle, if you can kind of talk about that story real quick, and then we'll jump into what the other thought I had.

Speaker 2: 20:52

Yeah, so Charlie Hustle. P Rose's nickname also the title of my book, I think is a critical moment, and anytime there is a critical moment in P Rose's narrative, a turning point, a pivot point, a high or a low point, that's a place where I wanted to do a lot of reporting and certainly the creation of this nickname is one of them. I do think that the name itself and the persona behind it is one reason why fans, you know, liked P Rose, one reason why we gravitated to Pete Rose. You know this is sort of the American story, pete Rose. You know, if you work hard, if you try hard, if you hustle, anything can happen. That is the American story, that is the story we tell our kids and our grandkids, that's the story we tell ourselves. And to me where it begins was critical and I was able to identify it.

Speaker 2: 21:50

This nickname was given to Pete during a spring training game on a Sunday in March 1963, march 17th 1963. This is Pete Rose's third spring training with the big club and it's the first spring training where there's a chance, an outside chance, that he could make the Major League roster. And by this Sunday, march 17th, that chance is especially present. He's starting that day against the New York Yankees. This was going to be a big game. The Reds and the Yankees did not play each other in these years. These are the preeminent Yankees Mickey Mantle, whitey Ford, yogi Berra, roger Maris. The game is being televised live back in Cincinnati, a spring training game. This never happened and it's a sellout. It's a sellout at old Al Lopez Field down in Tampa, florida, in a scene we can't imagine today. People have scaled the light posts in the outfield to get a better view of the field. And who's sitting behind home plate? None other than P Rose's own father, the man who's been pushing him all these years to hustle, than P Rose, his own father, the man who's been pushing him all these years to hustle.

Speaker 2: 23:08

And P Rose plays that day in the way we'll come to know him to play later. He plays with fury. He leads off the game as the leadoff hitter gets on base scampers all the way around the bases, scores the first run of the game. He later breaks up a double play, sliding hard into second base in a practice game, and then, you know, to lead off the fifth. P Rose drops down a bunt for a hit and this seems to be like the breaking point for the Yankees and some kind of conversation happens on the top steps of the visitors dugout there at Al Lopez Field and Whitey Ford and Mickey Mantle are having a conversation about this kid rookie nobody, pete Rose.

Speaker 2: 23:58

And it's important to note that. You know Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford are like the opposite of Pete. These are two men who've been touched by the hand of God, you know, with innate baseball talents. You know they don't have to work hard and hustle to be great, they just are great. And they're laughing at this kid, at watching him play. And what they say exactly isn't clear In the days ahead.

Speaker 2: 24:27

Some newspaper articles will say that they called him Henry Hustle, other newspaper articles will say that they called him the quote Charlie Hustler.

Speaker 2: 24:39

And it's only after a number of days that the press, the press, decides that what they called him was Charlie Hustle, and P Rose loves it. And even though it's not intended to be a compliment, even though they're effectively laughing at him for playing so hard, when he makes the big league club that spring and when he becomes the starting opening day second baseman for the Cincinnati Reds and when he travels for the very first time to Chicago and New York and San Francisco and Los Angeles, visiting cities he never thought he'd see, and meets reporters there. Pete Rose does that thing that we mentioned before he rebrands this nickname and he tells all the beat writers that Mickey Mantle saw him play, liked what he saw and called him Charlie Hustle. And that, to me, is just such a Pete Rose story. It is a quintessential Pete Rose story. It captures everything about his personality and it also, you know, captures that that thing I mentioned before. It really encapsulates why we will come to cheer for him, because, again, we will, as fans, come to cheer for Pete Rose.

Speaker 1: 25:57

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I grew up and I always thought, look at this guy, he's one of the hardest workers, he's the huge hustler and thinking about in my mind that he was this naturally gifted baseball player you know, and then really being able to unfold the chapters of his history that he was not. He was definitely not one of the best and, like you talked about, there's like a lot of like tournament balls. There's even a picture and it's like here's this tiny little guy and he ended up having connections that he used, like it was uncle had had worked with the Cincinnati Red and was he a scout? Was that what I kind of forget?

Speaker 2: 26:34

Yeah, his uncle was essentially like a bird dog scout in southwestern Ohio.

Speaker 1: 26:40

Yeah, so like he uses these connections in order to get himself in that position to even have this opportunity, of which, in this day and age, he probably never would have gotten picked up by a scout, he never would have maybe even played college baseball. He did not have the thing that they were looking for, that the Mickey Mantles or the Whitey Fords or any of these other kinds of guys the Johnny Benches of the world had. But there was some tenacity, there was this hard work, there was the undeniable spirit If he's going to give everything he can to become a winner, because he wanted to sit there and be on that podium, he wanted that attention and there was a narcissistic kind of sense to him that I gathered. But there was also, you know, I feel like you did such an amazing job of painting a 360 picture of who he was. You get to see some of the reasons why he might've had this type of mental uh, you know, tenacity, this type of like need to fill out a hole in in the maybe he had in his life from his, you know, needing to get that attention from his parents or his dad.

Speaker 1: 27:38

You know, like he like prove people wrong. Right, there is a like. You talk about that too. I love that idea too. That's like you know. It is like the American tragedy, right. But seeing him in all of his successes, I mean it's undeniable he's the hit King, right. And you know, 4,256, is that the number?

Speaker 2: 27:56

Yeah, 4,256.

Speaker 1: 27:57

So I mean there, there's no one that's probably ever going to touch that. There's things that he has done he's. There's world series titles, there are accomplishments that this man has had that in any other day, in any other situation, would have put him squarely at the very top in the hall of fame. However, I think you know, for those who may not know maybe some of the intricacies and I think a lot of folks who follow baseball do, but you know I have some listeners that may be, you know, approaching the subject for the first time, Could you lay out why he is not in the hall of fame?

Speaker 1: 28:28

I mean you talk about in your book again, but I want to like, maybe have you just spend a couple of minutes on this and talk about, you know, why is he not on the ballot? What happened, how did this happen, where Giamatti dies, and then you know how someone else comes in and let's just talk about that for a minute, If you can. I know it's a very, you know, detailed process there too, but if we can kind of share, you know, give some highlights of that so people can maybe understand why this is a polarizing discussion on should he or should he not be in the hall of fame oh my gosh, polarizing discussion.

Speaker 2: 28:56

Are you kidding me? This is like the great late night sports bar argument that everybody's had if you're a sports fan and they're decades.

Speaker 2: 29:02

Today, I mean it's one of it's one of the most polarizing sports are. Yes, I want to go back because I will answer that question. I want to go back to what you said a second ago because I think it's important. In the analytics age, the age we're living in now, where, you know, scouts and bean counters and baseball nerds are tabulating stats that will, you know, become the measure of a man and the measure of a youth athlete, and it goes all the way back down to the youth athletes.

Speaker 1: 29:34

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:35

Pete Rose never makes it, he would have never stood out and indeed he doesn't stand out. In the 1950s and even in the early 1960s, you know, scouts will visit Major League scouts will visit his high school on the west side of Cincinnati and they will have no interest in young Pete Rose at that time. So, by rights, shouldn't have never been a name we knew, probably wouldn't be a name we know today. And yet 42-56, the hit record that I do believe will never fall, in an age where players are no longer, you know, trying to. You know, punch a single through the hole between first and second just to get on base, the analytics would tell them no, no, no, swing away, we'll take a strikeout or a double off the wall, we'll take a strikeout or a home run rather than a bunt down the third baseline. So, you know, probably never should have existed, wouldn't exist today.

Speaker 2: 30:42

And yeah, p Rose, you know, is accused initially of betting on baseball, on the Reds. He denies it. Bart Giamatti, then the commissioner of baseball, and his right-hand man, deputy Commissioner Faye Vincent, hire a man named John Dowd, a highly qualified and experienced former Justice Department lawyer, to unravel this case, unravel the truth and unravel, ultimately, pete Rose's lies and in a stunning work of a first draft of history John Dowd and his team does that and in a matter of, you know, eight to 10 weeks builds a dossier on Pete Rose that really does unravel years and years of lies. But Pete Rose refuses to admit to the truth at that time, still maintains he did not bet on baseball, did not bet on his own team, the Cincinnati Reds, but will ultimately agree to his own banishment in August of 1989. Because there were rules, and are still rules, that you cannot bet on baseball if you are playing in the games. That is the best known rule in baseball and if you do that it was well known to any player, including Pete Rose, that you faced a permanent banishment. So he does. But when Pete Rose signs the agreement because he does sign to it and he does agree to it in August 1989, that he's going to be permanently ineligible, he believes full well that his name will appear on the ballot at the Hall of Fame two years later, in 1991, which would have been five years after his last at bat as a player.

Speaker 2: 32:45

It's only in early 1991 that the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown changes the rules essentially, moves the goalposts and says that only eligible players, only players in good standing, can appear on the ballot to be elected at the Hall of Fame. It is effectively the Pete Rose corollary. The baseball writers, the voters, are livid whether they were going to vote for Pete or not. They're furious because this is the very first time that the Hall of Fame is effectively pre-screened a player out of the pool of potential candidates, so you know, removes him from the pool of candidates. And you know, at the times and a future Hall of Famer himself, sparky Anderson. And Sparky Anderson says that month, in February 1991, when they changed the rules, that it's a mistake. He said, you know, because we will never be able to hash out the Pete Rose problem. This case, he said, would loom over baseball forever. And you know Sparky made a lot of mistakes along the way.

Speaker 2: 34:19

In the Pete Rose narrative. It's pretty clear from my reporting that Sparky knows in the 1970s that Pete's hanging around with a crew of guys he probably shouldn't be with. It's an open secret by the late 1970s that Pete is gambling and he's gambling a lot on sports, on football, on basketball. He's hanging around with lots of bookies. But Sparky Anderson is 100% right about this, because here we are, 35 years later. Sparky Anderson is gone, not with us anymore. Pete Rose is 83 years old. The world has moved on and changed a million times over, and yet this problem of Pete Rose is still looming over baseball.

Speaker 1: 35:15

Well, and the timing of this release of this book too, and the story of the otani allegations were just mind-blowing. I was like here we are in baseball talking about, I mean and this goes back to it too, and I think we need to definitely make mention too it's like it was the is 1918 world series, is that is that the one? Or 1917, 1919 world series, 1919, sorry, so you know, chicago White Sox there and that scandal there and these players basically were reached through bookies and through potential mafia and I don't know the full details there, but as far as, like, they threw the games for the World Series and that completely almost destroyed the integrity of this game, and so that rules you know rules and regulations came about to make sure something like that never happened again. You know, it's very clear in every single ball club and it's very, very prominently displayed that you cannot bait on baseball. So he has looked at that and looked in the face of it.

Speaker 1: 36:07

But I'm Pete Rose, you know, and I, whatever his or if it's maybe this that started because of how he got brought up into this by his dad and seeing this going on and betting so much and gambling and getting involved with some shady characters along the way, as the book talks about, and I feel like you know this idea that betting and baseball always had to be completely separated. But yet right now we are seeing I've seen it in major league baseball, you know stadiums, here it is. You know, place your bets, you know, go ahead and get you know your free credits by, you know, entering in your ticket number. Whatever it is to, it is very integrated now into online gambling. Um, I think you know there was a figure you had there's $120 billion were wagered in sports last year alone.

Speaker 1: 36:58

It is something that is so prominent now and if there are commercials that are, you know, whatever it is, draft Kings or whoever it may be, you know this week that baseball is. It feels very strange to me as a fan who has realized and has been aware of the Pete Rose no betting on baseball and what it's done to his career and how it's stopped him from being able to even be considered to the hall. You know the timing of this and the Otani allegations. If you could just kind of talk to me a little bit about the culture and then also maybe if you could also address the idea of the last glory days of baseball. When do you feel those ended? And what do you see in the game now? That maybe, and how you feel about this in the betting and how this is all kind of circling around the game right now.

Speaker 2: 37:47

Well, yeah, lots to unpack there. Happy to do it. So you know, I guess let's start with a defense of Major League Baseball for a moment. You mentioned the gambling figures $120 billion legally wagered last year alone on sports. Just to put that in perspective $120 billion, if we had instead pooled our money, collectively pooled that money, instead of wagering it on sports, we could have collectively purchased every single major league baseball team and still had about $40 billion jangling around in our pockets. So it's an enormous sum of money, and so any league would be making an economically disastrous decision not to partner with the legal betting platforms.

Speaker 2: 38:40

The market will dictate what companies do, and Major League Baseball is a company and you know the market is telling them, telling us. People want to bet on the games. So you know it would be folly for Major League Baseball not to partner with the legal gambling platforms, and their argument will be that, as a result of these partnerships, the game is safer, and there's an element of truth to that. Safer, and there's an element of truth to that. You know, when you place a bet on your phone, if you do that, there are people watching in real time, and by people I mean AI, software platforms. You know I have a legal betting app on my phone. Gambling is legal in New Hampshire, where I live, and you know I may from time to time use that legal betting app to place a $10 or $20 bet on a game. If tonight I'm in, let's say, houston and I place a $10,000 bet on the Astros to win, that is going to be flagged in real time because that is a bet that is out of the norm of my betting behavior, and they will be able to, in a matter of minutes, identify where I have placed that bet, where I'm standing when I place that bet, with my IP address and my location services, and with that they could pull the game off the board. This has happened already in sports, so you know there are these levels of protection that exist.

Speaker 2: 40:22

However, if we learned anything from the recent scandal in Los Angeles involving Shohei Otani and his former interpreter, ipe Mizuhara, it's that illegal bookies still exist and these guys today are not the kind of bookies that Pete Rose bet with in the 1970s and 80s. They're not guys in a back room of a restaurant or the basement of their house on a landline. Many of the illegal betting platforms and bookies have their own software that is housed offshore. Some of these illegal platforms look just as polished as the legal ones, and people are placing bets with illegal bookies still today, to the tune of $60 billion. Illegal bookies still today, to the tune of $60 billion not an insignificant sum.

Speaker 2: 41:23

So, and when you place bets with illegal bookies, there is nobody watching. Just as there was nobody watching in the 1970s and 80s when Pete Rose did it, there's hardly anyone watching now. There's no AI software device that's tracking those bets in real time. So any player or a friend in an inner circle around the players today knows, of course, they can't place a bet on their phone with DraftKings or FanDuel or BetMGM. They can't go to the legal betting kiosks outside many of the stadiums or at the gates of many of the stadiums today. They have to do it with illegal bookies or they're going to get caught. And so you know.

Speaker 2: 42:01

I think what Major League Baseball argues is true In some ways we are safer, but I think you know there's a great risk of what's happening right now, today too, and we've seen it. You know we talked about Shoya Ohtani and his interpreter, epe Mizuhara, but in recent weeks, an NBA player has been banned for sharing information about prop bets related to his performance alone. And here's the reality of the situation. You know, in Pete's day Pete Rose's day you know you had to have access to a bookie in order to place a bet, and not all of us did in the 1970s and 80s and not all of us would have wanted to assume that risk. You know a lot of bookies in the 70s and 80s. I would argue almost all of them either were part of organized crime or they were on the fringes of organized crime, and none of them worked alone. They were all in conjunction with each other and so you had to assume a certain amount of risk and know people in that kind of world to get to a bookie in the 70s and 80s.

Speaker 2: 43:14

Today we can all do it on our phones, from the comfort of our couches and our pajamas and our sweatpants.

Speaker 2: 43:22

We can do it from the seats at the stadium watching the game.

Speaker 2: 43:26

You know I was at the Red Sox game the other night and I was standing in line, you know, for at the concession stand in the middle of the game and the two guys behind me were talking about the bets they had already lost during that game, placing bets in real time on the game and strategizing for what bets they might place for the remainder of the game. Now, I mean, that's what Major League Baseball wants. They want a couple of young men at the concession stand talking about their in-game bets and what they might place bets on later in the game. But who else is a young man? Well, the players themselves. And what do they have? Tons of free time and tons of disposable cash. And so I think the reality of the situation is we're going to see more and more scandals around all of the sports, and the only question is is it going to rise to the level of the P Rose scandal in 1989? It's not a question of if, it's just a matter of when.

Speaker 1: 44:35

Great points, man. Um, I really appreciate your insight on that and I think it's it's very true. It's uh, especially in this day and age where footsteps are recorded, fingerprints are like everything you do is trackable, traceable, uh, and those things will come out. I always say the truth will find the way. It always gets found right. So these players may try to have someone else place bets, but eventually, if there's some text messages, people investigate enough. There's enough bread crumbs that are laid down to where you can find that out and that's where we'll find out on some of these things what the truth of the matter is. Are these people guilty of what they've been, you know, accused of? And, um, you know, I, I, I want to return to this cause that you know.

Speaker 1: 45:19

You talk about the last glory days of baseball. What do you think was the ending of the glory days of baseball? What do you mean by that? For those who haven't seen the book or read the book yet, or listen to it Great, audible, by the way, great audio book as well as the writing. But I wanted to just have you kind of touch base on that. What was it that you felt was that transitional point of the glory days being over?

Speaker 2: 45:44

Well, I want to be clear. You know I'm still a baseball fan. Yeah, we're just there.

Speaker 2: 45:49

All of the game. I was just at the red sox game the other night and someone you know told me uh, you know and I think this is is that there's an element of truth in this statement that the glory days of baseball for anyone is whenever you were 12 and 14 and 15 years old. That's your glory days of baseball, and you know there's some fairness in that. Uh, but here's the deal. You know, um, despite the current popularity of the game and there are lots of data points to suggest that baseball is popular and just as popular as it's ever been it does not, objectively, does not carve out the slice of the American consciousness today as it did 30, 40, 50 years ago. It simply doesn't. I would argue that if you walked around and randomly surveyed people and asked them who played in the World Series last fall, that the majority of people would not be able to answer that question. And there's a lot of reasons for that. Part of it is just the fracturing of the media and how we consume sports. You know, across all of the sports, with the exception of the NFL and, to a certain extent, college football, all of the sports are decidedly, you know, carving out a smaller slice of our consciousness today than they once did. But baseball was America's most popular sport. That's not my opinion. There were surveys that showed that again and again. In the 50s, 60s and 70s there was an annual survey done every year asking Americans what's your favorite sport? And all the way up through the 1960s the number one answer often not even close was baseball. But after the Super Bowl III and Joe Namath's upset over the Baltimore Colts the Jets beating the Colts, the old AFL, you know, beating the NFL this grand upset, it starts to swing the other way and for the very first time football is now more popular than baseball. That is a trend that begins, you know, in 1969, 1970. It continues to this day, you know. Meanwhile, you know, there are many things that happen within baseball itself that just make it far less interesting for the average American to watch. Again, not my opinion. There's lots of television ratings that prove that, that bear that out. And I think it's interesting and notable that in 1989, when Bart Giamatti rightly investigated Pete Rose and pulled out all the stops to do that, at least a couple of players maybe more were already injecting themselves with steroids in Major League Baseball, and they were doing so in the summer of 1989 in Oakland, california. Jose Canseco is on the record. He was already on steroids in 1989.

Speaker 2: 48:59

I think what steroids would do to baseball over the coming 15 to 20 years would have an adverse effect on the game. It guts numbers. It guts the records that we cared about. It guts numbers. It guts the records that we cared about. It forces players who weren't even on steroids to start swinging for the fences when they see that if you hit more home runs you get a bigger financial windfall, a bigger contract.

Speaker 2: 49:26

All of those things affect league batting average, affect the speed of the game, expect the movement of the game, expect the movement of the game and lead to the rule changes that I would argue we saw last year, where baseball rightly again tried to speed up the game and create more movement, more hits, fewer strikeouts, fewer home runs. And so I think all of that to me without question suggests that the last glory days of baseball anyway were the 60s, 70s and 80s. I'm not to suggest that there's not great baseball ahead, but to suggest that we're ever going to get back to where we were in those days I think is wrong great, great perspective there.

Speaker 1: 50:12

You know, I think a lot of folks also lost some interest, even though it was like gaining the excitement when you see these power hitters, these guys that were juiced up and you know, just to mention it too, it's like there was legalized methamphetamine type things, the greenies. There's pills that have been out there, that have been used, that have been in the clubhouses for years. There's things that major league baseball has known about, but they've looked the other way at times. I feel like um, and then there's times they've tried to crack down on things because like, oh, this problem got too big, we need to shut it down. And I think that you see those steroids, you know those power hitters, everyone wanted to see these records get broken, except for some people who I think maybe came from those glory days of like yeah, but that that'd be a tainted man, we're going to have to throw an asterisk by that, and I think there's like a different kind of era of baseball that we see, and I and you know I kind of wanted to get your opinion on this idea too of like one. I know that you have laid everything out in this book to where people can draw their own conclusions and I feel like in your truth to journalism, you've laid these things out to where I don't feel like your opinion is basically a trajectory through the book. I feel like the truth is through the book and you've done such a wonderful job of painting that and leaving us to our own self to make our own feelings.

Speaker 1: 51:29

I've learned more about Pete Rose and there's parts of me that I feel sorry for him. There's parts of me that I go, ooh, I really don't like that aspect of him. But, no matter what, I learned more about him that I ever would have in any other book and I've read some things with about, for and by Pete Rose and this idea too, of like now, I think, that ultimate question should he ever be allowed to be on the ballot? And is there anything special that we need to do? Because I believe in there was an interview you talked about where there may be, like in this era too, where there's a lot of folks who are on that fringe now, it's like should we allow them on the ballot? There's been, you know, evidence of, you know, the Barry Bonds. There's been, you know, allegations with the Roger Clementses of the world.

Speaker 1: 52:10

There's people have you, jose Canseco, who've put up some numbers, who have done some things that are so extraordinary that they would probably, minus any of this sidebar stuff, would have been in already but are not or maybe might not be considered, and I kind of wanted to hear your opinion on what you think if he should ever be on the ballot. Do you think he will? If he should, how should that be treated? Should there be something where an asterisk by these folks, and should we be basing it on their on-field play, or should their character come into play? And I know it's a lot to unfold, but I feel like I've kind of heard you talk about this a little bit and I wanted to see and have you share your opinion with listeners about that. You know whole ordeal.

Speaker 2: 52:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:53

So you know, obviously as a sports fan, I've wrestled with this as a fan you know, for decades all of these you know kinds of folks and you know, while it isn't part of the book, my opinion is not part of the book in any way, shape or form, intentionally. So Of course I do have my own feelings about it and my prevailing thought now, george, is just that we've completely lost perspective. I think we like to put athletes on pedestals, we like to ascribe moral values to them that they may or may not deserve, that they may or may not even have, and the fact is we simply do not know much about these guys. And I think the Shohei Ohtani scandal in recent weeks shows that again. And obviously there is no evidence that Shohei was involved in the gambling allegations in Southern California involving his former interpreter, ipe Mizuhara. But no one a month ago would have ever predicted that this kind of scandal would be on the fringes of his inner circle. No one would have predicted that. So we don't know these guys. We don't know what we don't know about these guys. And so, for that reason, my prevailing belief, not just about Pete Rose but about the steroid guys, about everyone you know who's you know tied up in that scandal so the Barry Bonds and the Roger Clemens and the Alex Rodriguez's of the world.

Speaker 2: 54:30

I believe now that we should enshrine or not enshrine them into the Hall of Fame based on what they did on the field.

Speaker 2: 54:39

It is the only thing we know for sure. And then, if what they did off the field is so wrong, so egregious, let's put it on the plaque at Cooperstown next to their glorious accomplishments. That is, you know, that is my prevailing belief at this point. And the fact is that's what the Hall of Fame was for a long, long time, when the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown was conceived in the 1930s and when the first class was voted in 1936. And for many decades to follow, there was no ink spilled in newspapers debating the moral worth of the men on the ballot. Many of these men who were on the ballot and who are now in the Hall of Fame were objectively the kind of folks that we would consider to be not very good men. The Hall of Fame is filled, you know, with all sorts of characters racists, philanderers, cheaters, liars, gamblers, drug dealers, drug users. They're all there. And so, you know, it's only in recent decades that we have started to ascribe moral values to our athletic icons, and I just think it's almost sort of ridiculous.

Speaker 1: 56:01

Well said, man. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. I can completely agree and I'm very curious to see what happens. I personally feel like if he ever is on the ballot, it's not going to be until after he has passed. I don't think in Pete's lifetime he's going to see his name there. Uh, you know, but then that's just the personal thought of mine. But we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1: 56:21

And I, you know it's by his merit alone on all of it. You know the, the numbers. If we're looking at that, it's undeniable he deserves to be there. But you know, you cross the line and you lie about it for years and only in recent years has he come through and been at least finally honest about it. But you lose a lot of trust and a lot of uh, I think support along the way when you've steadfastly said no, no, no, no, this is the truth. And okay, I was lying this whole time. And again, I feel like there's a lot of things in your book that, uh, let us understand, maybe a little bit more of the whys and the hows of his mindset, and maybe you know why he made certain decisions. And you know some things will always be left to, you know, chance and question, but I really felt like you did such an amazing job of painting a picture of him that we can draw our own conclusions. And you know this, the journalistic ability that you put to this is it's kind of rare in certain circumstances these days. A lot of stuff it's just for clickbait things, but there's an integrity that you held true that I deeply respect as a writer myself.

Speaker 1: 57:22

And before we leave, I had a couple of last questions here. I wanted to ask, as far as your own personal and professional legacy, how do you view all this? You have four bestselling books. You've done thousands of articles, maybe tens of thousands of interviews over your lifetime. You've left a lot of fingerprints behind for us to see some things that you found important to you to work on, which are really great, and we'll definitely point some folks in that direction here in a second. But I just wanted to get your idea about legacy. How do you view it? Is that something that you actively think about and the things you're putting through and building a living legacy, and how do you hope to be remembered?

Speaker 2: 58:01

Oh my gosh George, what a big question.

Speaker 1: 58:04

I saved it for the end. Right, there's the slow pitch. You did a nice slow pitch for the end.

Speaker 2: 58:09

I mean listen, like most people, I'm just trying to get through the day, get through the week. You know I'm not thinking about things like legacy until someone like you asks a question about it. But since you've asked it, you know, most importantly, I want to be remembered, you know, as a good father, a good husband, a good person, Full stop. Leave the writing aside, you know, as a writer, though, you know, one thing that I really try to do and I pride myself on and and and did try to do with this book, with Charlie hustle is is look at anyone's story with empathy. You know, no one, no one, knows what another person is going through.

Speaker 2: 59:04

And so, you know, when I interviewed people for this book and it's a book where, even today, not everybody in the room sees it the same way the witnesses to the same moment, the same argument, the same wager, the same night in the bar, the same night at the racetrack, have conflicting stories or feelings about what happened there.

Speaker 2: 59:30

When I did those interviews and met with those people who lived that life, who lived those moments, I tried to understand it from their perspective.

Speaker 2: 59:40

You know I'm not saying in the end that I might have agreed with it or that the facts bore out, what they saw that night or what they felt, but I did try to see it that way. And so you know there is, aside from Pete Rose, you know, hundreds of other interviews that were done for this book, you know, with people who were there in his inner circle, people who had that front row seat to Pete Rose's rise and Pete Rose's fall, and some of whom you know fell with him, paid a price for that friendship or that loyalty, for that friendship or that loyalty. And in every word and every paragraph that I wrote in this book, you know, I tried to write it with not just accuracy, not just an adherence to the truth or the closest version of the truth, but also to an empathetic view of the people who lived that life and were there that night in what is ultimately an epic story, an epic American story. And as a writer, that's just something I try to do in every story, all the time.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

That's wonderful and I know we need to wrap this up here too, but I want to make sure that people who not only are going to go out and check you know, check out Charlie hustle but your other amazing books too. You got paradise falls, fly girls outside shot. Uh, I know that you know they can learn a little bit more on your website, so why don't we just tell people where they can go and follow you? Uh, learn more about some of the projects that you've been in part of and some of the things you may have coming up, and if you can just go ahead and plug your socials and your website so that you know people can can go ahead and place some orders.

Speaker 2: 1:01:24

Cool, yeah, thanks, george. Well, yeah you. Uh, my website is Keith OBcom. Uh, my Twitter handle is the same, keith OB, and I'm on Instagram at O'Brien story and, and, uh, you know you can, all of those books you mentioned you can find anywhere they sell books.

Speaker 1: 1:01:36

That's great. Well, there's some amazing writing that you put out. You shared some wonderful stories, perspectives, truths and, like I said, the integrity that you hold in your writing is something that I definitely look up to and appreciate and I just thank you so much for taking the time today to, you know, chat with me and talk more about Charlie Hustle and, guys, you know, I definitely suggest anybody go out and pick up this book, and I've also talked to your publicist and there are three books that we will be giving away. So we'll be doing a little contest where people will be following your pages, following mine, and then there'll be entered in for a giveaway. So there'll be three copies of Charlie Hustle out there for you guys. So, all the listeners, go ahead and make sure you follow the socials, look down in the description below and look at the links to make sure that you're following Keith O'Brien and all the wonderful things he's got going on. And again, thank you very much, sir. I appreciate you being here today.

Speaker 2: 1:02:28

No, it was my pleasure. Thanks for the conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:02:30

Cheers man, you take care.

Speaker 2: 1:02:32

Thank you, george, you too Thank you.