Son of a Blitch

Ep. 47 Michael Sabbath: Navigating the Ethical Wilderness of Hunting and Conservation

January 10, 2024 George Blitch Season 1 Episode 47
Son of a Blitch
Ep. 47 Michael Sabbath: Navigating the Ethical Wilderness of Hunting and Conservation
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

As I sat across from Michael Sabbath, the author of "The Good, the Bad, and the Difference," the gravity of his journey struck me - from staring down a life-threatening heart condition to confronting ethical debates head-on. Together, we embark on an expedition through the thicket of morality, dissecting the role of hunting in conservation, and the fine line between right and wrong. Michael, with his expertise in law and ethics, provides a compass for navigating the complex terrain of teaching values to children and handing hunters the tools to defend their way of life with honor.

Throughout our discussion, Michael's anecdotes serve as waypoints, revealing the essence of character and the power of persuasion. Whether it was analyzing the heated debate over a black rhinoceros hunt or considering the distribution of funds from trophy hunting, we uncover the importance of evidence and moral consideration in advocating for conservation. Michael's experiences, from the classrooms of elementary students to the legal battlegrounds confronting policies affecting hunters' rights, illuminate the need for a deft touch in crafting arguments and the courage to uphold one's convictions amidst controversy.

Our exchange culminates in an exploration of legacy and gratitude, where Michael shares his profound desire to leave a positive mark on the world through his works and teachings. The candid reflections on his life's turns, his battle against what he perceives as evil, and the legacy he hopes to forge resonate deeply.

As we part ways, with promises of future dialogues and fishing trips, I invite you to join us in this episode, a testament to the enduring impact of living with integrity and the transformative power of ethical education.

Make sure to visit his website:
www.TheHonorableHunter.com

Michael's books:
The Honorable Hunter
The Good, The Bad & The Difference: How To Talk With Children About Values

To learn more about George Blitch, visit:
www.SonofaBlitch.com
www.MapMyRanch.com

Speaker 1:

Hello everybody, welcome back to the Son of a Blitz podcast. I'm your host, george Blitz. Today I got to have a wonderful conversation with Michael Sabbath. You guys may know him. He's the author of two wonderful books the Good, the Bad and the Difference how to Talk to Children About Values, and the Honorable Hunter, the instructor training manual. He's also been a well-known lawyer. He's been very often in the circuit of discussions and speeches at various events Dallas Safari Club, namibia, professional Hunters Association and all sorts of places in between. He's often in Texas working with the Texas Parks and Wildlife and their Hunter Education program. Our good friend, steve Hall, our mutual friend, runs the Hunter Education Coordination there for Texas Parks and Wildlife and he is who introduced me to Michael earlier this year as they came out and visited the family ranch and we gave them a tour and got to chatting with Michael and I had done a quick deep dive when I knew he was coming over into these books and really realized how meaningful both of these books would be in my life and how I really wanted to have him come and talk about them. So we discussed a lot of those today and kind of the background that got Michael into wanting to write these books, one of which was a nearly fatal heart issue back in 1989 that forced him to really reevaluate his life and what he wanted to do after he started his road to recovery, and that is what ended up being the foundation for wanting to put out the good, the bad and the difference on the book on how to talk to children about values, and it's a really phenomenal book. The other one, as I mentioned to the Honorable Hunter and Structure Training Manual, is a great book. I think anybody who is a hunter should probably dive down into this, because there may be a time in your life where you might need to defend your way of life and hunting and being able to do it in a very persuasive and educational way. This really kind of breaks down how to look at your own experiences, your own morality, your own value system, your integrity and talking about all the different things there too what is true, justice, wisdom, compassion and we discussed a lot of these things in the podcast today about how these are very important things to evaluate and why and how we can break them down. And Michael worked with a lot of elementary kids for about 25 years and posed a lot of very difficult questions and really taught them how to really identify their beliefs and thoughts by forming a lot of those questions, and so we just had a great conversation, really, really had a lot of fun with him today, and I think that you guys are all going to get something out of this, and I definitely highly encourage you to go check out his books. All the links will be in the description below and, yeah, without further ado, let's jump into this. Enjoy this wonderful podcast with the one and only Michael Sabbath. Michael Sabbath, my good friend, how are you today, sir George?

Speaker 2:

I'm delighted to be here. I'm honored to be here.

Speaker 1:

The honor is all mine, so it's already taken. Sorry, I'm glad you're here, man.

Speaker 2:

I'm glad you're here. You and I have been talking about this ever since we met. That was in May of this year, and it was a delightful, whimsical, unexpected joy for me. Came down to visit your ranch a little bit out of Austin. I was visiting Steve Hall, who was the director of hunter education for the Texas Parks and Wildlife, and I've known Steve it's hard to believe 10 years and I was in your neighborhood big neighborhood, by the way because I was giving some talks at the Texas Hunter Ed Instructors Association down in his Brownwood, brownwood, texas, and Steve invited me to come to your lovely place and we had a great time. In fact, there was an epic event epic at your ranch, your farm, when I caught my first ever bass. I'd never fished for bass, not sure I ever saw one before and, as you recall, you were guiding me, you gave me the rod and so on. This thing was a monster, it had to be at least a pound and it was extraordinary. And so all of that happened because of you. I am eternally grateful and appreciative. And then we talked about getting together, visiting, doing some hunting together, and you mentioned your podcast, and I very much enjoy participating in those events and sharing whatever modest insights and perspectives skills that I have. So here we are. I'm delighted.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. Thank you for joining me and yeah, you know I don't know about the pound thing. I mean, whenever you pulled that bass out, all the water had receded. There was basically no pond left. That thing took up the entire area of the pond.

Speaker 2:

It was huge. We found bodies from when the mob was taken over Houston and Rhode Island. I saw one guy. He had a Rhode Island driver's license. It was an extraordinary experience, yeah.

Speaker 1:

If I get the ranch now searched because of this podcast, I'm going to bring that back to you. It would be my fault. I wanted to actually circle back to the idea of, like, when you were coming in and doing this discussion with Texas Parks and Wildlife. You know, right here I've got one of your two books, the Honorable Hunter, the instructor training manual, and this is a phenomenal book. You know a lot of hunter ed instructors have used this as a kind of foundation to be able to talk about ethics and principles and I was curious was the, that discussion and you coming in as a guest for that event? Was the? Was that kind of related to you know, some of you maybe expanding on the book and talking to people about some of those principles within you know, as far as, like, promoting hunting in an ethical way is how, or is that kind of a byproduct of, hey, you've done this, you've done a lot of work in that field, and so now that they're like, let's get the superstar over here to talk a little bit about it, kind of walk me through that and how you kind of got involved with you know, working and putting together this amazing manual, because I'm very curious about the origins of that.

Speaker 2:

Well, first of all, thank you for showing it. I'm profoundly appreciative. The actual manual, the physical product, was in fact a consequence of many discussions over several years with Steve Hall. Coincidentally, I had been giving many, many presentations and lectures at seminars throughout the United States, even throughout several provinces in Canada and also in Namibia, west Africa. So I've been around a little bit, but I began getting an interest, the developing an interest in applying some skills, let's call it that. I think I acquired, or I hope I acquired, through my many decades of practice in law. Many years ago I actually developed a continuing legal education program on ethics and rhetoric, and this is for qualifying lawyers for their education credits, and I've been doing that. I think the first year was about 1996. And so I've been doing it a while. I think there are valid and valuable insights and ideas. But it came around in about the year 2012,. As I recall, in Colorado there was an abundance of what you might call anti-hunting, anti-second Amendment legislation being proposed in our Colorado legislature and things like the red flag laws, which ultimately became law several years later, and I came to the conclusion that the hunting community whatever that means the hunting community, pro-gun people were not making the best arguments to advance their cause, to defend their cause, and I drew upon the lessons and the insights of Aristotle. He wrote 2400 years ago, but the bright guy would love to talk with him and what he had to say then is applicable now. And I met somebody in the Colorado Hunter Education Program and he introduced me to Steve Hall, and Steve Hall and I became close friends immediately and it was Steve who encouraged me to do some lecturing throughout Texas at various events. Years go by, as they tend to do and he asked me to write a book or a manual. Steve was of the opinion that nothing in the hunting community, all the 3R programs, all the mentoring programs, all the hunter safety programs none of those, as noble, laudable and virtuous as they are, none of them addressed any of the issues that I discuss. And what I discuss is how to craft arguments, how to advance hunting and shooting, how to defend against unfair arguments, how to develop character, how to analyze arguments, and I give dozens of examples in the book. And so the book was created. I think it was about two years ago it was that recent and Steve Hall bought a bunch of them. I'm appreciative for that. I'm not quite able to get a Bentley just yet, but maybe a cup holder, and I've been lecturing in Texas for 10 years at least, and so I think that the ideas that appealed to Steve Hall and he's a person that I respect, of course I respect him in large measure because he sees value in what I do. If he thought what I did was terrible, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. But he sees value and what we agree is a paramount, ineluctable topic is teaching the kids to develop character and, as part of that, making them stronger. Making these youngsters stronger intellectually, morally, in terms of moral courage, in terms of taking a position, taking a stand and, of course, verbal skills, becoming an advocate, knowing how to advance an argument, knowing how to defend against an unfair argument. And so I came up with a couple of rules, and one of them, as I said to you in our very brief conversation before you began recording, I said I like to look at events metaphorically, symbolically, and so, in order to achieve that, I distill certain rules which I think are universally applicable. And so, for example, I speak about clarity, clarity, moral clarity, intellectual clarity, but of course that's an abstraction. So what do I actually mean? How do I apply it? So I always begin with some archetypal, foundational questions to help guide and I teach this. I teach it to little kids, 10 year olds, 12 year olds. They understand, which brings me great joy. But and so I teach to ask questions such as when you're discussing an issue, discussing a topic, you say it's good or bad, could be better, could be worse. Compared to what, always compared to what, what are you talking about? Then you say, or you ask what's the cost? What is the cost to implement your dream, your vision, your idealism? What's the cost? Nothing is cost free. There are no solutions to any problem. There are only trade-offs. You're going to have hunting or you're not going to have hunting. You're going to ban the import of lion trophies and elephant trophies. What's the cost? Who pays the cost? Who gets hurt? What is your evidence? I mean, I'm a lawyer, right, try to look at evidence. What are your facts? How do you substantiate what you say? And then, ultimately, all of that leads to what might be considered the ultimate question what is the morality of your consequences? What is the morality if we follow your policy? We ban hunting, we ban trophy imports, we ban hunting of certain species in various fill-in-the-blank nations. What is the morality of that outcome from your policy as opposed to the morality of the outcome from, let's say, my policy or George Blitch's policy? This kind of analysis makes people stronger. It imposes discipline. It makes them better thinkers. It makes them more mature, educated thinkers. It makes them better advocates. That's what I try to do when I teach at the Texas Hunter Ed, for example. When I lecture Dallas Safari Club, I say the same thing this will make you a better advocate. Let me give you an example. You want an example?

Speaker 1:

Yes, please.

Speaker 2:

Yes, please. This came about in a most improbable way. My insight into this problem. I was invited to be a speaker at an annual conference of the Boone and Crockett Club. They happened to have their convention in downtown Denver in that year, december of that year. Well, that's a 15-minute drive from my house. I was delighted Not a good parking spot, as I recall. So I knew it was going to be a good day. I gave a talk and it was at that Boone and Crockett Convention that I became aware that the Dallas Safari Club was having a public auction for a black rhinoceros hunt. The auction was going to take place a month later, january, at the Dallas Safari Club Convention. I was very intrigued because I suppose in large part because of my experience with this continuing legal education, training on rhetoric, on advocacy, on deconstructing arguments and the morality I became a student and I learned what was going on. It was absolutely brutal. What the attacks A lady named Oxley, her first name will occur to me but they were vicious. I knew that there was a place for the application of my thinking, my skills and so on. I knew that the Dallas Safari Club and the advocates were not making the best argument At Arrest. You have to make the best of all your available arguments. That means you might have lots of different arguments that you can make. The rhino raises money. The rhino what is the best of all of them? As you said to me I don't remember now if it was before we began recording or in the beginning you have to understand your audience. Who are you trying to influence Now? I'm a lawyer. I've learned decades ago. It's absolutely pointless to argue with a person whose living depends on disagreeing with me. I know that. Who is my audience? To apply this concept of clarity, you focus on the facts. I'm going to just go through the process with you. I hope it's entertaining to you. I hope it's entertaining to your audience, but first you go through the facts. What are the facts? The overarching rule is as the facts change, morality changes. Morality is always fact-based. The facts in this case we had a black rhinoceros, a male, that was beyond breeding age. It had already killed five younger rhinoceros juvenile, had killed them. That's what these animals do. That's what lions do, that's what grizzly bears, that's what they do. Nature is a rough neighborhood. Yes, yes, they were going to raise. They expected the auction to raise 300 or more thousand dollars. That money was going to go to anti-poaching programs, upgrading a water treatment plant in one or two small communities. How money was going to go to local schools and so forth. This lady, Phyllis Oxley, who opposed the hunt and said the most grotesque things, the vilest accusations. She said hunting this black rhinoceros is barbaric. Barbaric, that was her exact word. You're Googling. She thinks it's barbaric. Either it is or it isn't. Either it is or it isn't. How do we analyze it? That is the skill, that is the clarity that I try to teach. Try to encourage people to impose that discipline of thinking. If she thinks that killing that rhinoceros is barbaric, let us figure out what she thinks is not barbaric, what is not barbaric to this lady? Having a rhinoceros that already killed five younger juvenile rhinoceros that, to her, is not barbaric. Clearly, she's not interested in preserving the animals because she's advocating the defense of a murderer. It's not barbaric to deprive a small African community of clean water. That, to her, is not barbaric. Being poaching is not barbaric. Killing more animals, whether they're elephant, lion, elan, fill-in-the-blind kudu that, to her, is not barbaric. Now, I'm not here to argue with her. I'm here to analyze what the lady stands for. This is what she stands for. These are her own words. It's not me as some slick lawyer I wish I were but it's not me as a lawyer interpreting. I'm simply recording what the lady said. We know what she thinks is barbaric, and now we know what she thinks is not barbaric. With that clarity, we can put together the best arguments to defend the black rhinoceros hunt. We defend the hunt. That's the skill and we show the morality which has the better moral outcome. By the way, the hunt, the auction in 2013, raised $350,000. I was at the banquet and the successful bidder was just four tables away from me, a young man. He bid $350,000, he won the auction and then he handed over and gave the certificate to his dad. He said this is a birthday present for your dad. That's what I call a good son. I keep reminding my children you learn from this. You watch this. Now we know what is the most moral outcome. We can make a moral argument, as I repeatedly state in my lectures. I state in my writing. I just finished an article last week for an elegant magazine, mountain Hunter, which is published by the Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia. In that very brief article not easy to write, a short article Mark Twain pointed that out I said always base your arguments on morality. Always have the skill to see the moral analysis. Now I'll give you what I think is a great example. I'll tell you the truth. I'm very proud of it, very proud of it. It was in 2016, in November, and I was a guest of this extraordinary lady, deneen Van de Vestheisen. She and her husband own the Aru Hunting Safari Outfitting Business A-R-U. Aru. She's an extraordinary lady and she got me invited to give two keynote speeches at the Namibia Professional Hunters Association Annual Convention or Conference in Windhoek, namibia, november 2016. I stayed at her ranch, which is magnificent, and on the second of her two ranches I actually saw two mature male black rhinoceros. One of them was going to be auctioned the following two months by the Dallas Safari Club. Again, I saw it. I got within 100 yards of that animal and Deneen's husband Gyspert lovely man, he's stalking the thing With a camera. I watched him get within 30 yards of this rhinoceros. It was the size of the Chrysler building in New York.

Speaker 1:

It was huge, as big as your bass, almost Well, not quite, okay. Okay, I'm going to get the intervals here, got it?

Speaker 2:

Go on. It's important to be specific. Indeed, I'm starting to look for the keys for the truck to get out of there. I figure he's finished. All he's been doing is telling me for two weeks that it's an animal in Africa, why it has an extraordinary sense of smell, but its eyesight is terrible. Anything that doesn't smell right, it charges. Whether it's a person, whether it's a Denver Rio Grand Locomotive, whatever it is it destroys. I'm looking for the keys to the car I'm going to get out of there. He comes back. I said Gyspert, what are you crazy? He said, michael, I'm a professional. I knew what I was doing. The rhino didn't even know I was there. I was downwind. I said what if the wind changes? He goes oh, I don't know. See how? It's a bit of a digression. I hope you forgive me, forgive, forgive him. At that ranch I met a man this is another great story. The hunting season was already over, but the need and the husband. They're such creative, entrepreneurial people. They took advantage of the fact that Wind Hook at that time of the year. That area of Namibia has the finest air on the planet for glider planes. Who would know the finest? They had 20 glider pilots from all over Europe with their $300,000 planes stacked up and they're flying out of 1,000 kilometers a day. I got the chatting with him, as you know, and one guy, lovely man, a surgeon from Poland, came up to me and he said very graciously, what are you going to talk about? He knew I was there as a guest. I decided to do a test. I hope that your audience finds this motivating. I hope they find it inspiring, educational, for sure I hope I decided to test out my theories of persuasion on him. He's a European, he's probably anti-hunting and so forth. I decided to do a test, inspired in large measure because of my background with the Dallas Safari Club Lino and having seen them just two days before, just two days before. They're magnificent animals. I asked him, in getting his attitude in a persuasion, which is the name of a wonderful book by a guy named Robert Cialdini persuasion. I was reading the book at the time, just coincidentally. I said listen, would you rather have more rhinos or less? He said I'd rather have more. He said would you rather have less poaching or more poaching? I said I'd rather have less. You think that these little natives, these little black people that everybody in Europe loves so much would you want them to have better medical care, better food, better water Cleaner?

Speaker 1:

water.

Speaker 2:

Of course I want to. Would you favor an event that could deliver those variables? Oh sure. Then I told him about the black rhinoceros auction, the hunt and all of that. I will never forget this. He looked at me and he's a serious man, he's an educated man, he's a thoughtful man. He looked at me and he said I'm against hunting. Probably I would be against that, but one must have an open mind. I would support that hunt. End of sentence. Now I'll tell you a little icing on the cake. I was in Namibia last year. I gave some talks there Again what was last year 20-22? I don't even know how to keep track anymore At the NAFRA conference and then was a guest again my wife and I. Nancy was a guest again at Danine's ranch, Veronica. Again, there were the glider pilots and he was there. His name is Jersey. Six years later he was there. I told him how important he had become in my writing and my lecturing and he said he was so happy. It was a delightful icing on the cake moment because I could relate to him what he had shared with me and how important it was. That's an example of clarity. I'll give you another example that I think offers useful guidance for those of us who want to defend hunting, want to advance hunting and know that it takes skill. You don't just shoot from the hip, just as in this podcast. I spent hours thinking what am I going to say to George? I want to be credible, I want to say something useful. I don't just although it may come across this way I don't just whimsically, flippantly say things that what may or may not come to my mind. One of the great attacks, one of the common attacks against hunting, particularly what they call trophy hunting, whatever that means and that's a whole other lecture is that the money really doesn't go to the community, the local indigenous communities, or very, very little of it does. Well, on the surface, that argument may have validity. It's certainly worth talking about. You have to be very astute and you have to be intellectually honest. If an opponent makes a valid point, you should acknowledge it. You might as well acknowledge it because the audience is going to think it's valid. If you don't acknowledge, you lose credibility. If you acknowledge, you say, okay, that's worth talking about. Then you gain credibility. The issue is credibility and the most important variable in persuasion is your own credibility, even more so many times than the facts. Ask any lawyer, any trial lawyer. It could be more important than the facts, your credibility, your integrity, how you are perceived as an honorable or as a dishonorable person. I have had these discussions. I said, okay, let's discuss it. Then again you go to that formula what are your facts? I asked you do you know how much money actually goes when there's a trophy fee of $50,000 that you pay the outfit? Do you know how much goes in Namibia? No. How much in Tanzania? No. How much in Zimbabwe? No. So you really don't know, do you? I said, okay, you don't know. Would you agree that if there were no hunting, then there's absolutely zero that goes? Would you agree with that? Well, I guess. So I said what do you mean? You guessed Is it true or is it not true? Okay, it's not true, nothing goes, okay. Then you say, okay, do you know where that money goes, that $50,000 lion fee, like Walter Palmer paid with Cease of the Lion? Do you know where it goes? Well, I don't really know. I think that the outfit, it gets it all. Okay, well, it does. It gets a little bit. The state licensing gets a little, the ministry of tourism gets a little. The people that drive you around and schlep you around all over the Africa. They get a little, it goes, but then you hit them, or at least I hit them, I tried to. I said, okay, use your opposition to hunting as you phrase it now is that it's kind of fraudulent because the money really doesn't go to the local community, although you admit you have no idea. But how about this? What number would be acceptable to you? What percentage? You know, like Tony Soprano, give me a number, just give me a number. You give me a number and after that will you become an advocate for hunting or is your argument completely phony? You're just throwing mud on the wall to see what sticks. Which is it? Are you an absolute fraud or do you really have something legitimate and concrete to contribute? And there's a general rule that shuts them up, because what you find and this is anywhere in life, anything, what you find, among other things, if you look, people have very strong opinions about very general topics, but very weak opinions on specific, fact-driven issues, and that's why we hunters must focus on the details. We must focus on the detail. So those are some of the ideas, some of the skills that I try to share. I've been talking too much, george. What do you want me to?

Speaker 1:

No, these are great points, I feel like, especially when we're talking about kind of the quote unquote trophy animals and going and hunting over an Africa, wherever it may be, and the funds that are paid to go and take this animal, and people come back and they normally just see someone there and then maybe a shoulder mount or a full body mount of this animal and oh, they just went to conquer it. I think it's very short-sighted. If you disagree with killing any kind of animals, or whatever you have your moral stance, there's one thing that you might be able to have something to stand on as far as your belief in this Okay, all killing is bad. Okay, well, have you neglected the fact that, maybe, if there's someone who's a vegetarian or a vegan, how did these crops get grown? Well, they were in a field. Well, what was the field before? It was a forest. Okay, so now someone's taken down the forest and now they've planted this and they've gotten rid of all these other types of animals that lived here before. You've actually effectively killed some of their animals in order to have this food grown, so you have participated in it. Like you bring an argument to certain people that they might not want to hear, but it is a fact-based thing, the idea of what goes into these communities, how a lot of the funds that go in there will be able to help these sanctuaries or these wildlife preserves. Hey, there's certain types of animals that only have this small amount of habitat left and if that habitat's gone and eradicated, that animal's gone and your love for that animal's gone because it's out of the picture. So it's a very fine balancing act, I think, to be able to talk about how to have these resources, the funding, the land, the habitat for all these types of animals we want to have, instead of just having them bred in captivity in a zoo where you can go and you pay money to go. Take a picture of this last of its kind, and when people just see on a surface, oh, black Rhino, oh, someone's just paying a lot of money to kill this thing Well, yeah, you pointed out the facts. They killed five of their animals. There's five that are gone because of this one. Would you rather have five? Would you rather have one? Even just breaking it down into these simple arguments or simple facts, rather, and getting a yes, no or a I agree with or I disagree with or I'm impartial answer from people is very important and I love that you've talked about that in your book here, because a lot of the examples you're talking about the morality, the ethics, these principles, how to persuasively talk about hunting and obviously being a pro-hunter and I mean just the idea of anti-hunting is so new to our human evolution and our way of life. But the idea of being proactively, talking about the stances and talking to people one on one is important. We have, I think, is the stats that I from the Outer Stewards Conservation Foundation said maybe it's like is either five or 7% of our population here, just the United States or hunters? Well, that's a very small number, but we have a I think it's like 80 or 85% support into our way of life of hunting. Now the idea of like trophy hunting goes way down killing for the sport, of putting something big on the animal. That is a smaller number. But when you break it down into terms, like you talked about, I think it's important to understand because there's different ideas. Like we said, it's a whole other podcast, right, or a weekend of trophy hunting. But being able to talk about these things effectively is important in our way of life and being able to keep that and when you talk about it in this book and like a lot of this manual is going to be talked to or taught to adults who are going to be teaching other adults and children. But I also wanted to kind of make this pivot here too of your other book that you wrote, because this is a lot about talking with children the good, the bad and the difference, how to talk with children about values, and I love how kind of there's reading this book too. I mean you look through it, it looks like chicken scratch. I'm taking all these notes and things because I find, with having a kid of my own and working with a lot of children in my past, the education and things too there's so many wonderful things that are in here. These are great guidebooks for parenting and obviously the pivoting into the outdoors. And now I'm rambling. But I wanted to have you talk about this other book and how you got started, because you're continually teaching a lot of people sometimes how to teach or how to have these arguments or how to have these persuasive discussions or how to just be ethical and honorable and virtuous, and I want to know where this kind of comes from. Where did you decide to write this book? What were your experiences that drew you to write this one? Because we kind of talked a little bit about the Honorable Hunter but now, diving into this one, let's kind of talk into this because I know that these tie in and a lot of the discussions that you're having with me today, but I really want to do kind of a gloss over and then we can dive into this book a little bit more. Was this written? What made you want to write it? What was your inspiration? What was your goal behind putting out that book?

Speaker 2:

A lot of questions, a lot of good questions that lead like a little trout streams in all kinds of different directions. I'm delighted. First of all, I emphasize how much I appreciate you making reference to them and finding them meaningful. Oh yeah, I'm honored, I'm pleased, I'm delighted, I'm pleased. You should understand that. Your audience should understand that you took the time to read and think about it. A lot of podcast type folks don't? They don't. Anyhow, you did Good for you. Well, thank you. Regarding that book the Good, the Bad and the Difference I tell you emphatically and unambiguously I don't recommend, having done to you what happened to me that led to that book. I don't recommend it at all. It was a matter of making something positive out of the single most frightening experience of my life. What happened was on December 18th December 8, 1989, I had heart failure. I was at home. Fortunately, my wife was there. Unfortunately, she's a doctor, a surgeon. She knew my history with my heart. I had a deformed or malformed aortic heart valve. It finally occurred to her about 11 o'clock at night that maybe it had become infected, because the way this deformation is, it lends itself to heart valve infection. I checked in Border hospital, a couple of miles up the road. We had just bought our house. We'd only been in the house a few months. I have three children. My oldest, the least, was just five. Little Annie was three. Eric was, I think, about eight months old. I got these three little tiny children. We get checked into the hospital and, in brief, every hour things were getting worse and worse and worse. At some point I realized I accepted I had a major problem. It wasn't going to be taken a pill, it wasn't going to be taken a shot. I had a major problem. I had open heart surgery on December 21, 1989 at seven in the morning. Who's counting? I have an artificial heart valve. That's what's keeping me going. I woke up after the anesthesia and I moved the fingers and I moved the toes and I moved the arms. As I said, I'm a lawyer. I have a lot of friends who do medical malpractice law, both from the plaintiff, the defendant. I know bad things happen. Bad things happen. You can read it on some bumper stickers. Things happen, but it all worked out. I felt so blessed, I felt so fortunate, so lucky which I do every day of my life that I survived this. I'm now lying on the bed getting intravenous antibiotic for five hours a day. I felt so blessed I said I got to do something good about this. A cosmic debt is the phrase I developed. I thought of it as I watched all these people, the doctors, the nurses, the surgeons, even the people who came in and just cleaned the rooms. I'm in Denver the middle of winter it's pretty rough. Everybody was there on time, at least to what I could tell the nurses and doctors and all of that. They didn't come in intoxicated or high on drugs and so on. They were all responsible people. I was the beneficiary of it. I have these three little kids, which I thought was quite possible I would never see again. I came up with the idea of giving back, paying the debt, of creating a course to teach ethical reasoning to little kids. I began sketching it out. That's what I do. I write stuff for them. I got out of the hospital at the end of January of 1990. I went to my oldest, elise. She was in first grade at Cherry Hills Village Elementary School. I presented my idea to Elise's first grade teacher, lady named Sandy Pratt. At that time the school it was run like a little private school. I mean, it's a small school. Everybody knew each other. It so happened that I had some credibility there because almost all the girls in my class were on my soccer team. I was their soccer coach. I knew them, I knew their parents. We got along. Sandy Pratt, the teacher, said well, you have to get approval from the principal, jerry Crawl. I remember this so vividly. It was 1990, january, february maybe. I spoke to Jerry, who was a very fine man. He said, michael, I'll let you do it, I trust you, just don't embarrass me. I said I won't embarrass you. He says listen, I don't want anything about abortion. I said, listen, jerry, very few first graders have abortion. I don't think it's a problem. I did it for 25 years, taking meticulous notes every class for 25 years. The last six or seven years were at an absolutely exquisite public school. They call it a, not a charter school. Oh, I just had it, it'll come to me, but it's some kind of public school. Kids compete to get into it. These children were magnificent. Somewhere along the line somebody said you ought to write a book. I started writing a book and I realized very quickly I was a terrible writer, even though I had been writing articles for many gun magazines, many hunting magazines, double gun journal, safari magazine, a lot of stuff. But it was a different kind of writing. It took about five years. Of course, every week there's new material, but ultimately I finished and the book has been well received. People who, I think, know what they're talking about, who are serious thinkers, say it's a good book. In that book I again offer an architecture, a structure on how do you know something is good, how do you know something is moral, how do you know this? And I provide a framework, I provide an architecture. I call it Staling, the Seven Seas, and it's the letter C. At two in the morning I thought that was a clever play on words and it was. And so I talk about classic ethical principles of autonomy, beneficence, sanctity of life, justice, and then these characteristics that happen to begin with C, like courage, character, consequences, compassion and so forth. And I said these are measurable and what you measure is what you get. What you measure is what you get, and if you can measure your morality, then there's a greater probability you will act more morally. More of the time. I'll give you some funny stories. I was in my first grade class, elise's first grade class. These are just five year old kids five years old and I said to them I asked the question how do you know if something is good? And one little fella says I never thought of that, I don't know. And so we talked about it. Then I asked the question why be good? What's in it for you? Why be good? I'll never forget this. This was 1990. And one little guy says it just makes your life go easier. And then another one said I tell you the truth, george. Another little one said yeah, and then your parents don't have to hire lawyers. I ask you, george, has there ever been a profession more misunderstood? True story. But what I think is a unique contribution in this, the literature, the genre of childhood education is. I have actual dialogues as if they were deposition transcripts of the little kids arguing with each other and thinking things through and asking for guidance, asking for the words. And so I discuss those chapters on those seven virtues with the letter C and the four or five ethical principles. They're taken from biomedical ethics and how the little kids analyze what does it mean to be beneficent, what does it mean to be good? So, for example, you raise the question and I read this challenge, this moral dilemma Is it moral to steal money to buy medicine to save a dying child? Powerful question. Great question 99.99% of humanity, children and otherwise, within a nanosecond. Absolutely nothing is more important than saving the life of a child. But one out of a thousand will say well, maybe it depends. And that is the opening of the door, that is the glimmer of hope. It depends on the facts. What are the facts? Well, what choices did you have to get money other than stealing? How far along is the dying process? I mean, in a sense, you begin dying from birth, you know. So how far along? Is the child going to die in an hour, or is the child going to die in 20 years? And when you have the variables, you have options, you have choices, and then the choices have moral content. And so the children will end up thinking it depends. Let's talk about the facts. If a parent who was a drug addict and is stealing money to buy heroin and drugs and God and then chooses to steal further to get medicine instead of not spending money on heroin and methamphetamine, those are different moral issues and it's not my intention to give the answer. It's my intention to teach a process. Don't figure out the answers if they want. That's not my business, but it is my desire to teach a process, and the book has dozens of those examples.

Speaker 1:

So that's the feedback, too, of the children that they talk about. They always look forward to you coming back in because you would listen to them and they were like you're, like on our level, but they felt like more like adults and then they welcomed you into their world and their way of thinking. Because of the way that you interacted with them and I'm guilty of it too, I'm sure every parent has where you're kind of talking down to the kid and sometimes asking them what's going on in their thoughts and then breaking down the process of their thought, you can really understand more where they're maybe coming from on an idea, and it gave me pause on how I was, just as much as I can have at times a quick temperamental change or something that's frustrating my day and whatever it is. I might be snappy with my kid one day and then sometimes just to go okay, what did my kid go through today? Why is maybe my kid quote unquote misbehaving or in a bad mood or whatever? Just snap out of it. What's going on with you? Well, kids are going through stuff that are pretty remarkable every single day and there's a lot of big things happening, a lot of thoughts. They really are. I mean so whenever you kind of got down quote unquote on their level or you rose their level up to you or however you want to talk about that equilibrium state of the conversation, it really showed how much they respected you and opened up that, oh, this guy really wants to know how I feel, really wants to know how I think you're engaging them, and so what is? That process alone, I feel like is so valuable. But the way that you talk about how you open up those kinds of communication and being able to bring in those levels of discussion and really get to hear from the mouths of babes because some of these answers are just downright funny to some of these questions and some you're like, they're mind-blowingly powerful, like, oh, I didn't even think of that, like whoa, and you even talk about how sometimes you were taken aback with some of their answers.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely true. I have, early on in the process, as I said, I did it for 25 years as a volunteer. Early on in the process I came to accept that I will never underestimate these little kids, never Starting in first grade. Starting in first grade, I'll give you two anecdotes which I find very insightful. I find them powerful. I ask in almost every class at the beginning not every year for 25, but most. I'll hand out a very simple questionnaire and the first question is who are your heroes? And the second question is why is that person a hero? Almost all will answer the first question my hero is my mom or my dad or my parents, Almost all. Every now and then you get some guys, some little students Martin Luther King, nobody has ever said. My hero is the director of the Securities Exchange Commission. Nobody ever said that but Martin Luther King and so on, which is marvelous, okay. But then the second question and the answers to the second question why are they your hero? And the children universally answer because they made me better people, they helped me, they made me stronger. If you can't see the lesson there, then the very little will move you in life.

Speaker 1:

Have you had that question posed to you?

Speaker 2:

I would get out of it.

Speaker 1:

I'll put you on the square here.

Speaker 2:

You think that I'm going to get caught in my own question. George, how dare you. I'll tell you another anecdote. I asked the little ones and this was specifically, I remember most vividly, the fifth grade class in this Ebert Holaris in downtown Denver. A magnet school is called a magnet school. I asked them what makes them feel proud. Their answers caught me off guard. Tell you the truth. What makes me feel proud, what makes these little ones feel proud, is when their parent, maybe somebody else, asks what do you think? What is your opinion? Why is this important to you? You think about it and how could it be otherwise? How could it be otherwise once you think about it? Those are some of the issues that I did present right about in that book the Good, the Bad and the difference. Again, it is about the ability to measure whether you're being good or whether you're not being good, how to do it and how parents should teach it. The book was not written for first graders. When I began promoting it at the very beginning and speaking at the parent teacher conferences and Lions clubs and those kinds of venues, so many parents came up to me and said they liked most about the book was I gave them the words that affirmed what they thought was true but were not sure. Or perhaps more important. I gave them the words that empowered them to say what they believed was true. But they were afraid. A lot of parents are intimidated by their kids. Go figure, these little tiny nothings and their parents are afraid. I remember telling my son. My son said to me he said you're the worst dad in the world. I said how the hell do you know? And then somebody would say well, he really didn't mean it. I hold people accountable. I said to little Eric. I said little Erica. I said have you seen what children go through in Yemen? Do you see what they go through in Ethiopia? Have you seen what they go through? Fill in the blank, they don't eat, they have no roof, they have no food, they have no nothing. They go do very little cross country skiing. I'm worse than that. He said well, now that you mention it, it's not so bad, I'll clean up my room, but it's a matter of holding them accountable. And when you hold them accountable, what are you doing, george? You're honoring what they said, you're listening to them and you're saying what you said has value. And now, in this case, I'm going to tell you how full of crap you are. But it has value. I'm listening to you. I'm not being dismissive. You don't really mean it, honey, you don't really mean it. I don't know whether he meant it or not, it didn't matter. He said it, and words matter. To me, words matter. So I think that there's some good stuff in there that I think most anybody will find, at least something that has value?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I think so, and I mean it's applicable in all senses too. I think as a parent. It's a great book. There's a lot of things that really make you think about how you're parenting, about how you're having discussions and how to really dive in and dissect things. I think for an educational platform, like as far as teachers, it feels like it's something that you must read because it really, I mean, both of these are these kind of training manuals of sorts. In the way I look at them, you're using your experiences, you're using your conversations as examples, and one is maybe for the idea of helping to defend training, like how you're going to be talking about hunting. You got another one. It's about with education and with children, and really I love how I've been able to apply things. I've read on both in multifaceted ways in my life, even in podcasts, even asking people certain questions. Okay, why did you say that? Let's get down into really how you believe about something, because you really can find out about people's core beliefs and how they have formed their opinion when you are presented with how to ask certain questions, and I think that's the key.

Speaker 2:

That's the key. It's how to ask questions and how to master the rhetoric and the skills of rhetoric to stay focused on your point and to reject efforts by, let's say, someone interviewing you to interrupt and negate and trivialize your points. I'll give you an example. That is in the hunting book, but a couple of years ago, quite accidentally, I saw a reference. I think it was on the Dallas Safari Club Facebook page. I don't follow Facebook much anymore, but I happened to see it this day. I think it was around in the year 2019, pretty sure. And what caught my attention was the little title was interview by our friend, coincidentally, deneen van der Vestheisen. If it hadn't been for her name, I would not have paid any attention, but because it was Deneen, I shared with you the history of being her guest and going to Namibian and so on. I linked to whatever was being referenced and it was an interview that was being held by a woman named Emma Barnett of the British Broadcasting Corporation, interviewing Deneen about hunting. Now, because it was my friend, I listened and it was about a 20-minute interview and I listened about three-quarters of it and it was an audio file, it wasn't a video. I put it on pause and I said to myself this is the foundation for a great series of lectures dealing with a hostile media. Because this woman, emma Barnett, was vicious and she was dishonest and she set Deneen up for humiliation and embarrassment. And what angered me so much is Deneen is my friend and I didn't want to see my friend and I said I've got to do something about this. And now I then listened to it 10, 15 times and did a complete transcript and then sent off to the Alice Safari Club and Safari Club International and I said I want to give this lecture and then I began doing it in my lectures in Texas. And this event, this interview, is absolutely drenched in potential lessons for dealing with a hostile interviewer. This Emma Barnett was beneath contempt, a despicable. She lied to Deneen about the very topic. But one of the skills that I distilled from that process, which I think is among the most important skills that a person can master, is dealing with the interviewer, trivializing or dismissing what you have to say. So, for example, you said a moment ago you would talk about hunters and the trophy, and it's not just having the mount on the wall. And so indeed, in that interview there's discussion. Do you just shoot the animal. To put the trophy on the wall, you have to analyze the rhetoric of it. It's what we call a logical fallacy of the false analogy and the strawman argument. You need to get the skills if you really want to get to concert pitch, if you want to act at the top of your game. And so Deneen responded and I'm paraphrasing, but it's close enough. Deneen responded, she said no, getting the trophy on the wall is really not the important thing. It's the experience and it's the concept of the hunt and it's being able to be part of a movement larger than yourself. It's conservation. And Emma Barnett interrupted and said well, okay, yeah, but what about the people who just want to kill the biggest animal? Now, deneen is a gracious human being, she is a decent human being, and she moved on. I'm not so gracious and I'm not so decent, but in any event, I wanted to make the point. Emma Barnett says basically yeah, but let's talk about this, and the proper response is don't yeah, but me, we're not moving along. What I just said is really important and you're not going to be dismissive of me. I talked about conservation. I talked about how the trophy hunter kills only the animal that is no longer reproducing, such as that black rhino that is killing younger animals. Don't you ever be dismissive of me when I make that point. And if you continue to be dismissive of me, the interview is over, I'm leaving and I will do everything possible to make sure you never interview anyone else again, at least in terms of hunting, and I have articles and transcripts on my website of thehonorablehuntercom which lays out many, many of the analysis and the techniques, and I think there are some of my speeches that I gave at Dallas and SEI on that topic which critique. Which critique? Not everything, because you go on forever, but I'll tell you a funny, funny story. This is a true story. I think it was two years ago. I was giving a lecture at the Texas Hunter Ed Instructor Association in Palestine, texas Hell of a place to be right now, but Texas would be OK, but otherwise and I gave a lecture to the audience on media techniques, dealing with the hostile media and so on. I got a chuckle because it's so funny. After the lecture, one of the attendees, one of the audience members, an older guy, came up to me and he said I really learned a lot from your lecture. I'm going to use it on my wife. I said no, don't tell your wife about me, don't use my name. Michael Sabah told me yeah, I could tell you and here's how to reach him. But it's so important to learn the skills and what I try to teach the little ones, the youngsters, the students. Have the moral courage, have the confidence, have the confidence to use your skills. And, as I tell them, as I wrote in my books maybe both of them and as I say in just about every lecture I give, I said don't be intimidated by the numbers. Whether one person disagrees with you or whether 100 million people disagree with you has nothing to do with the morality of your position. It's not a numbers game. You are either right or you are wrong. Either you make the more compelling moral case or you do not. Now, of course, you should have the immoral and intellectual humility Say gee, take a look, 100 million people disagree. I ought to give some thought. So you do it. And then you come to a conclusion. Maybe you amend your position, but maybe not. The numbers don't matter, it's not a numbers game. And this kind of insight, this kind of perspective, makes kids stronger. It makes them stronger and, as I share with you, steve Hall, and it is in the hunting book. When hunting can become a vehicle, a method for enriching the character of a youngster, then that person will be a hunter for the rest of her or his life, forever, even if he or she never hunts. But they will believe in the ethic and believe in the ethos of hunting to honor life, to honor life, to value life, to respect life. That's why you make an ethical shot, that's why you buy expensive ammunition, that's why you sight in your rifle, that's why you only shoot within your capability range and you don't take 700,000, 800,000 yard shots just in the hope, because it's a living animal and you respect it and you shoot and hunt within your capability. So every aspect of hunting is ethics, everything and that's the larger picture that I and people like Steve Hall support Ethics is everywhere. Whether you're well rested, whether you pick the right boots to wear, whether you have a first aid kit, certainly you have to know if you're shooting the right animal. If you have a tag for a deer and you go shoot an elk, you're in trouble, right. And then there are issues that require judgment. What do you do if you have an elk tag and you see another wounded animal that you didn't shoot, but you see it. What are the ethical obligation to use your elk tag to put that other animal out of misery? Now, these are important conversations. They don't necessarily have an answer. And even if I did, I wouldn't give my answer, because my goal is to teach the reasoning, my goal is to teach moral judgment. That's what I want to accomplish.

Speaker 1:

So that's when, by posing those questions and every circumstance is different we can both be in the same room and look at something, but we're never going to be in the exact same spot at the exact same time looking at the exact same object in space. It's just never going to happen. We can't occupy that. So what you see is going to be something that may be even 10 seconds different. The shading and the like could be a little bit different. We're never going to always see the exact same thing or have the exact same perspective. But when you put things into these questions and these not necessarily arguments, but these analyses where, what are you going to do with that wounded animal? Well, what are the circumstances? Ok, let's lay those out. This, this, this, this and this OK, well, based on these and based on my belief system, then if, then what? Like being able to have those kinds of discussions. It makes us better thinkers, and I always look at it like this too, and I've said it in another podcast before. But the idea of multi-perspectivism whether someone else coined that before or not One day, I just threw it out there, so I may have heard it, I have no idea but the idea of being able to look at one thing from 360 degrees. Try to put yourself and everyone else's shoes, try to really understand something to the nth degree, to where you can make the most educated decision about it and we're talking about things that aren't necessarily this object of thought, but our own minds and like, how are you going to be able to back up what it is you think, or how is it that you really think? How are you going to? Ok, well, what is moral? Ok, what is moral to me? What is this? Having these kinds of deep dives into the discussions of how we see our own way of life, our own truth, our own belief systems? You know, not every People want to make things black and white all the time. Well, no, this is just so. This is unjust. Well, what are the circumstances of each one of these? Let's really break it down. And sometimes you have to go to that microscopic level to be able to finally be able to say I believe an A, b, c or D or E, none of the above, maybe, or all of the above, whatever. It is Like that. We need to analyze things in our own self to be able to, I think, stand firm our own foundation, and I believe we need to analyze and look at all these things in order to live the most virtuous, honest, productive life. And the more I've read these books, the more I kind of go back to all these philosophical challenges that certain books died me to, or even philosophical professors I had in college. Like really taking that deep dive down into trying to understand why we understand it, how we understand it I mean it's multifaceted, but I really love that. I feel like I can get true foundations of my own belief system and be able to have these discussions with people of how to lay it down. And you were talking about the seven C's or whatever it is that you're analyzing things with. I found that to be so profound for me and made me start rethinking things about the hows and the whys and then taking that deeper level of each one of those. So just again, I've been astounded by how much these books awakened my ability to want to deep dive into things and subjects and also, when I'm interviewing people, really trying to get down to the hows and the whys of what they feel and being able to have them explain that and really not just ask these surface questions. Really OK. Well, I really want to know this how did you arrive at this? How did you break this down to be able to come to this determination or this finality of thought? And I just love it and again, thank you so much for gifting these to me when you did and I want you to just maybe be able to tell people where they can go and pick up these books right now, so that they can kind of take a dive into this journey that you've provided us with.

Speaker 2:

Well, I have your words. Evoke a few final words from me? Yeah, please. And getting final words from me is not so easy, or me either. But you have identified many, many different levels of issues and once again now I'm repeating myself the fact that you find value in what I have done honors me deeply and I say that from the depths of my soul. You're an experienced, educated guy and for you to have that response from what I've done is very uplifting, very affirming. I mean I say this you say you become encouraged to reevaluate, reassess, deep dive and so forth. I'll tell you a story that happened. It was just a few days ago. I was writing it's an analogy I just wrote an article for the magazine Clay Shooting USA on the Colorado State Sporting Clays Championships. It was about a month ago, held at a beautiful facility, long Meadow in Wiggins, colorado, wonderful people and I just finished the article a couple of days ago and I interviewed several of the top competitors and they explained to me how they do the visualization and how they do before the shot and their pre-shot routine, and how they do the deep breathing and how they try to control what thoughts enter their mind and then the focus on the target and they describe it as exhausting. They finish each event, 100 targets and they're exhausted. It's the same with what you just described All of this introspection and questioning and analyzing and revisiting and reassessing. It's hard work. That's why so few people do it. It's exhausting and it's humbling because you may make a mistake, you may come to the conclusion that you're kind of a fool, at least at the moment. Who wants that? The tendency is to do what is easy, to do what is easiest. That's the human. So that's the battle all the time. It's the battle against comfortable and it's the battle against what is easy. That's the message. It's much easier to be an unethical hunter. It's easier. End of sentence. So the battle is against what is easy. It's more than just good versus evil and that evokes and this will be the end the idea of being sincere in giving your opinion. I sincerely believe. Lawyers you hear it all the time closing arguments. And of course he sincerely believes. I sincerely believe. Let me tell you something Sincerely is not a virtue. Some of the greatest tyrants and grotesque human beings have been absolutely sincere. A noble, a vicious, vicious idea doesn't become virtuous because someone sincerely believes it. It's a very difficult concept to convey, but it needs to be conveyed. Being sincere is not virtuous in and of itself. If anything, it should do exactly what you described moments ago cause you to revisit, reassess, develop some humility, develop a penchant for introspection and then revisit it. If you have the high confidence, you could say okay, I believe in it. In fact, I believe in it sincerely. I mean, what does it mean? Anyway, I believe in it and I quite sincerely sincerely, I'm not sure about you know, you could do a Jackie Mason routine on it. But those, george, a couple of my thoughts. I thank you profoundly for giving me this opportunity and I hope that somewhere, somehow, someone in your audience finds some value in what I had to say.

Speaker 1:

No, I know that'll happen, without a doubt, I know it. You've provided a lot of value to me and my friends Matthew Mitchell, who says hello, by the way We've all thoroughly enjoyed our time with you, reading your books, hearing your perspectives, having these wonderful conversations that bring about more conversations and open up other layers of thought. I definitely suggest people go check out your books and we're going to have to have another podcast, another discussion, because I mean we're just scratching the surface of other things. We haven't even recounted the eight hour ordeal of bringing your bass ashore and things of that nature my back still hurts, I know All these months later, six months, and it's still. That was a big bass man. But I do want to have future conversations and maybe we can kind of maybe circle some ideas and say, hey, let's focus in on this and just whatever that this may be. Today I've wanted to kind of have some broad conversations, which I knew we'd kind of go and deep dive into some more narrow topics, which we did there too. But I really wanted to introduce people to your books, to you, and obviously you're trusted all around the country of people in other countries too, having great discussions and being able to lead some of these conversations and thoughts that need to be had and said and evaluated. Very known for that and it's an honor or privilege to call you my friend. Before we go out, for today at least, I wanted to pose a question to you and I'm very curious about your answer here too, and it's something I've been asking each person I've been interviewing for the most part, and you have a lot of richness that you've provided and works that you've done and places you've been, places you've traveled, people you've met, and so with that, I want to know what your legacy means to you and what you want your legacy to be. You step off in that final sunset. How is it that you hope that you're remembered and what is it that you hope that you've left behind? For people to remember you as and by?

Speaker 2:

I'm glad you didn't ask an easy question.

Speaker 1:

I don't throw softballs, man.

Speaker 2:

Well, I'll come back in a week. Go, practice on your pitching Legacy. Legacy, it's a strange series of thoughts. It's a strange series of thoughts because it's a unique and somewhat discomforting phase of life. Yeah, I've outlived my dad by six years. I now have a perspective of how vibrant and vital he was when he died of cancer. These last six years have been magnificent years for me, but a lot of my friends are dead, acquaintances are dead. I pay more attention to obituaries and so forth, but the legacy is simple, an acknowledgement that anyone who cares to know which may be close to nobody, but anyone who cares to know is that I know how lucky I have been Absolutely lucky the medical care, my wife, my children being born in this country, being able to eat maybe a little bit too much. The legacy is that I'm just a lucky little boy, just a lucky boy, and that I did try to do something good. I did try. I was a good dad, a good husband, I think, and I tried to be helpful. I tried to be helpful. There are those who have done far greater than I and I'm still trying. I'm not finished yet, although I feel a little tired to tell you the truth, but I'm not finished. I still try. So a legacy I tried to do good. I was aware I'm able to distinguish between good and evil, and I hope that I'm the kind of person who can fight evil and stand up for what's good. I think that's the best I can do, my dear George.

Speaker 1:

Wonderful answers. Thank you very much for sharing that and again, I think we're going to have to have multiple conversations and rounds of podcasts to continue to further these great discussions, and I appreciate you coming on and being so open. I appreciate you writing these books and sharing them Again. So you have a website TheHonorableHuntercom.

Speaker 2:

TheHonorableHunter. Also the Amazon. They're on Amazon, I think, and they're both available in eBooks, so you get these kindled right away.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, great. Well, I'll put down links to the Amazon and also to your website below in the descriptions. People can go check that out. I highly encourage you guys to pick these books up and read them and follow your journey and check out all the interviews and wonderful discussions you've had on your website. And once again, michael Sabbath, thank you so much for joining me today, thank you for your friendship and I look forward to seeing you, hopefully sooner than later, and let's go do some fishing. How about, okay? Thank you, george. Thank you, you take care. Thank you.

Michael Sabbath on Values and Hunting
Advancing Hunting and Shooting Arguments
Analyzing Advocacy and Morality in Hunting
The Importance of Credibility in Persuasion
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